How to make offerings as a conversation with spirit

Please note: We run our audio podcast episodes through a transcription software platform that offers 90% accuracy. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.

Episode Transcript:

Lian Brook-Tyler  00:19

Hello, my beautiful people a huge warm welcome back to the show. In today's crazy modern world, men and women are living shallow, disconnected and unfulfilling lives. So we created the path for those who are ready to reclaim their wildness and actualize their deepest gifts. The next crucible we'll be opening is waking the wild sovereign in early 2023. It always sells out so if you are feeling the call to sovereignty, and actualizing, your inner king or queen archetype, then register your interest now so you'll be the first to hear when it opens for application. The link for that is primal happiness.co/wtws. Now this week show it with third time guest and my teacher Jez Hughes. Jazz is a British Sharman having studied intensively the path of shamanism for 30 years. His healing journey began when as a teenager, he experienced a fit that propelled him into an altered state of consciousness. It took a long time to integrate that experience and find healing for the physical and mental disturbances initiated. This journey that he now understands as a shamanic one, last few around 17 years and took him through healing and spiritual traditions across the earth until he finally came home to shamanism and found practical methods to cure himself. He has studied with various teachers and indigenous elders across the world. Jez's work has featured in the national press, as well as TV, radio and magazines including Sacred Hoop, natural health and more. His first book, The heart of life was published in 2015. And his new book, The wisdom of mental illness, shamanism, mental health, and the renewal of the world was published in 2021. Jez's his passion is empowering people to reawaken their ancestors, the land where they reside, and their spiritual heritages to heal the relationship between the human and natural world. In this conversation, Jez and I explored the practice of making offerings as part of a relationship and conversation with spirit. We spoke about what offerings are, the benefits of making them, and how we can begin or deepen that practice. Let's dive in.  Hello, Jez. Welcome back to this.

Jez Hughes  03:41

Nice to be back.

Lian Brook-Tyler  03:43

So last time we spoke, we started, I think there was kind of like a bit of mention around making offerings. And I felt this sort of urge to go deeper into it. But it also felt like it was a bit tangential to what we're talking about. So I felt that it was something that really deserved at least a good chunk of an episode in its own right, and really, as part of a wider exploration in terms of having a relationship or conversation with spirit. And so I'm happy that we get the chance to really go deep into that this time. And I think I mentioned in our last episode, that I had been really moved and inspired by what I've learned from you about offerings. I had a practice of making offerings before I worked with you but there was absolutely something in the way you speak about it and the way you model making offerings that has really, really touched me and inspired me in that myself so it feels something that will be of great benefit for anyone listening. So if I think if we could just start when I think we will go into this wider conversation or relationship spirit, but just talking specifically about offerings, what does that mean? If someone had, you know, barely any idea of the idea of making offerings? What do you mean by that?

Jez Hughes  05:22

Most shamanic cultures most most ancient cultures, based upon, this reciprocal relationship between humans, and the natural world, and the invisible world that is behind the natural world. So from an animistic perspective, the world is held together, the physical world and the natural world is held together by these forces that have their own intelligence, and they have their own agency and have their own personality, I suppose you could say. And these they put, traditionally called the spirits, the invisible forces that hold this manifest world together, and they're responsible for holding that world together. And humans are in a great deal of debt to these forces, because they provide us with everything we need to survive and to live, they provide us with the food, with anything, we need to keep warm, or to have shelter, everything comes from the natural world. So and even the fact that we've been given this body is, we're in debt, at the beginning of life, and we spend most of the life taking from life as humans, we take food from the land we take, we take produce, we take all the, like I said, the materials to, to provide comfort and warmth, etc, etc. Nowadays, we take more than ever, to the point that everything is completely out of balance. So the natural world is being imposed upon by humanity constantly. So what ancient cultures realized is this, because we spend most of our lives taking, there is a need to give back to be in that relationship to recognize that relationship. And traditionally, that the way of giving back is through offerings, so physical offerings, usually, something like it depends what culture, it's what is important to the culture, so anything that has value. So coins are a traditional offering, because they have a monetary value in exchange value in human culture. Also, the minerals that are that are in a coin have been mined out of the earth. And so it's already been taken away. So we're giving back apart and those minerals are seen a lot indigenous cultures as the heart of the earth, the heart of the Mother Earth. So we're giving back that with our intention. But there can be anything sweet foods is usually traditional, anything that has a value to humans. Because we value it, and we are part of the natural world, we are part of everything, then to give it back, we're in with an offering and with that intention, is saying Thank you, basically, but because we have this tendency to take more than we've been given, really throughout our lives, until eventually we will give up our body as the final offering and the body will go back to feed the earth it will nourish if it depends if it if it's buried, but it will nourish the earth and a lot animals will feed of insects will feed off that. So you could have you could say life is a big offering really, eventually we will lose or give back what is our most precious thing gift we've had in this lifetime, which is our physical body to be able to experience life. So it's recognizing that in advance that we need to start paying in order to create balance. Shamanism is all about balance between the human world and the invisible world, which is seen as, as I said, the forces that create, sustain, and sometimes transform nature. So we give back with those offerings in terms and through that it creates a communication. So that's on the basic level is recognizing were also recognizing where the real power comes from that when as humans we're borrowing all the time. We're not and that's why indigenous people don't talk about owning a certain piece of land. They don't say we own the land, we borrow part of this land where we've come from. So it's, it's, it's creating a different dynamic and relationship within natural forces, the simplest thing of just creating an offer now, or giving an offer rather, but you can give offerings and other ways you can sacrifice part of yourself, you can give us you can sacrifice your comfort, you can fast. And collectively, if you fast together, that's a big offering, because you're sacrificed in that natural desire to eat or to drink water. And through that sacrifice is making an offering, or you sacrifice your physical strength or your physical, your physical strength through continuous drumming, or forced through sweating, sometimes we offer our tears, our poetry, our words are songs, these are all offerings. So that's one level of it. It's about keeping balance and making those payments. So there is a truly reciprocal relationship that we have with nature. But there's many different I mean, it's something so simple.

Lian Brook-Tyler  11:14

May I ask a question? So you mentioned a couple of times about that. shamanic role of keeping balance. And what I'd love for you to speak to is there's, that's the role of the shaman and the way the shaman will make the offerings. But it's not just the shaman who would make offerings if the whole village would have that as as a practice, it might well be the shaman of the village thats saying, you know, this is an offering we need to make to keep these forces in balance. But it This certainly isn't something that's kind of like only for people who are on the shamanic path, for example, this is really for anyone who wants to have that kind of relationship with spirit, which I'd love to hear your sense of that.

Jez Hughes  12:08

I mean, in animistic cultures, everyone gives offerings because everyone is everyone recognizes the shamans is a specialist role, the specialist role is to negotiate with these invisible forces on behalf of the human community. So as you say, that negotiation might mean that the spirits because this shaman is able to understand what the spirits desire, they might, the shaman might then say, well, the this doesn't need an offering here, or it needs an offering here or we need to give bring more offerings, but in an animistic culture, everyone recognizes that the the we are indebted to the invisible ones for our lives. So therefore, everyone gives offerings without question.

Lian Brook-Tyler  12:58

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. And so do go on. I just wanted to get that point clear. In case it sounded like we were saying like it's only for the shamans.

Jez Hughes  13:09

No, no, in animistic cultures, everyone, under most cultures, throughout history and throughout human kind and different cultures have practice offerings, it's very rare cultures that hasn't practically had this. It's very simple. So it's, there's something innately human about it, and it goes back 10s of 1000s of years as archaeologists will find when they when we went on the pilgrimage this year, but the Pavlin cave in, in Wales, and there's I think it's 35,000 year old burial there, of a, what possibly could be what we might call a shaman. And we know that because they were buried alongside very magical paraphernalia. So this this burials are often and they've found through 1000s 10s of 1000s of years, evidence of human giving offerings, so this goes back. And it's one thing when shamanism or any spiritualities is often taught in the West, it's probably the first thing that goes I was never taught it for Western shamanism. I was never taught the practice of offerings. Because I think we come from this culture that is still has lost any sense of that we need to pay in first or we need to give back something in order to receive so many people spend a lot of the time petitioning the invisible world so through prayer or through asking for things I mean, it's even stuff like cosmic ordering as if you can, it's a computer you can just tap into and been. No one has talked about I'll tell you when we're actually need to pay in first. So that's one thing. So on a purely psychological level, and taken away, the more spiritual side, it's something, I think even more essential for Western culture for modern culture, because we eat is so out of balance, and we take so much from the earth without even considering a small offering, or given something back. And so And human beings, we, we can understand this concept of credit of gratitude, or you could meditate for 10 years on this idea of gratitude. But actually, in my experience, because we're embodied as human beings, we're in a body we it's important that our practice is embodied as well. So when I go into the woods, say, for example, before training, and we haven't been there for six months, I automatically get a feeling of not being particularly welcome there, because the spirits have had their way there's humans are very loud, they're clumsy, they, we we affect our environment in huge, huge ways. Even when we're trying to be the most respectful, we're still marching around, we've got loud thoughts, etc. And so it's a reminder to go to the to the woods and ask permission. And and to take this offering. On a simple level, if you're going to go around a relative's house, or grandma or grandfather or auntie or whatever, or even parents and you're constantly just take and you walk in the house, you open the fridge, you start taking all the food out, or you start helping yourself, eventually, no matter how loving that family is, they're going to start to get a little bit irritated if we don't ever take some flowers or bottle of wine or something to give back first. So from an animistic perspective, the spirits are other humans as well, they're just in a different form, or a different Barlet. Or, or they're invisible. We're all connected in that way. So it is a deep sign of respect. And on this, it's, again, it's an action, an action mix means so much more than words. So people will pray, how thankful they are Fuller, to the invisible ones, which is great. But then match that one, with something that you're actually going to give away. And it's a sacrifice, it has to mean something. So people come to offerings, and they start, oh, I don't need that anymore, I'll give that to the spirits or that that old bit of food or whatever. And you always is animal assistance that you always give the best of what you have. And it's it teaches generosity, it teaches recognition, and it teaches that most important aspect, I think of being human, which is gratitude. And it teaches in a very fundamental physical way. And if and it on another level, it also slows down human progress. Because if you look into history, so if you go to Grimes graves for for example, which is in East Anglia, and when about 5000 years ago, around the same time they were building Stonehenge, they mind deep down just with deer antlers they dug about, I think it's about 30 feet, 50 feet down for this special black Flint. There was that deep layer. So they it was it was very special that they wanted to mine. So it's one of the first kind of mining human activities if you like, but when they rediscovered these mines, these Neolithic mines at every point they found offerings. So every point when they went down, so that slowed down this mining process because they had to presumably often also, what is on the what comes with offerings is the ceremony, the ritual. So it's not just we just kind of place an offering here, usually there's a ritual and a ceremony around it. So every point there was probably many, many different ceremonies before they finally got to this, this this black Flint. And then most of the they can make these incredible knives out and daggers out of it and arrows. But most of what they found in terms of what their creations that were made, were then offered back so they were offerings in themselves. So there was sacred knives and they're all there was sacred arrows they weren't necessarily used practically our world is the complete opposite. All we're looking at is what can we take from the earth in a very practical way to use to make batteries or to use to make buildings up to use to make this or that and it's very it's, it's lost the sacred. There's no sacredness at all. It's all about functionality, what can we make? What can we take from the earth to make our lives more comfortable? Our ancient ancestors took stuff from the earth. And that's the what they believe the first why the first mining of gold in the Americas was as well because most of the gold was then offered back and they found it in, in lakes, bottom those lakes and stuff like that. So it's we, in from their perspective, they use human ingenuity, human creativity, human endeavor. In order to pay back to the gods, what we've used there, or the human ingenuity through science, technology, is just to make ourselves so called more comfortable, and, and, and dominate the planet. And that's where we've gone completely out of balance. So what the offerings does, it actually slows down progress. And Martin Practo talks about this, he said, the amount of offerings the Mayan culture would have to do to just create a knife, it would it would be a six month long process to to offer to each to each parts of the materials of the knife, but also to ceremonially open it and, and make it sacred. And he said, it would never be efficient to make a car because it will take about 10 years, the amount of offerings you need to do. So with modern people look at ancient cultures, they call them primitive. But what they don't realize is, we all have that potential for that human ingenuity, but they had built into their culture safeguards to protect, because they realized that too much human creativity, too much ingenuity, too much tricks, the minds just keeps gets as more and more out of balance with the natural world as we see now. So the offering process is a time for pause. And I thought, okay, what are we actually creating here? And what is the sacrifice that needs to go into this? So it works on many different areas, the spiritual level, we're feeding the sacred constantly, the more we feed the sacred, the more we can and the more we feed ourselves paradoxically, but it also works on very psychological levels and and as a as a checkpoint for human excess offerings. A very good many different levels. Really,

Lian Brook-Tyler  23:00

yeah, yes. Wow. I love that story of the the mining it just says so much. I felt really moved as you describe that. I remember once and I can't remember if you said it on our last show or not. But you've you've said it before in the woods. I don't know if it's one of the Mera Kaam has said since you something like our magics too strong as in kind of, you know, modern culture, our magics too strong, as in we are using that magic in too much in terms of that creation. And that really gave me pause. And it's like, it's, it's not that they're, they're seeing that what we're doing isn't magical. It's that we're overusing it. I'd love if there's anything more you could add to that.

Jez Hughes  23:46

Yeah, I mean, that's I didn't even specifically the the Murakami's but other indigenous cultures have said that, we Yeah, the magic is to stronge. we have taken from the invisible world. So for example, the humans have this ability to imagine something like a plane or something like that, that is coming from the completely the invisible world, and through ingenuity and practical endeavor, we can create that and therefore we change the world forever. So that is, but when that's done without any kind of understanding of the consequences of that. So what how things how that plane could then lead to something else that then lead to something else and lead to societies with that which can vary then disconnected and out of balance with the nature. So that's the kind of the magic being strong and you see it like I mean, just to use this example again, it was very popular in the 90s in the 2000s. With this idea, you can manifest anything the secret etc, etc. or cosmic ordering or whatever is called. It's that same Emotional lack of maturity. It's like a teenager in a sweet shop or kid in a sweet shop saying, I can grab, I can take, I can take this, I can grab this, and then I can add it, there's a lot of energy behind, but not necessarily the maturity. And that's where the kind of the cultures that are more ancient and that's why I say they have these, what I would say safeguards built into the culture and that's the wisdom of it. It's the safeguard to, to knock off the excesses of human greed or desire or just human creativity. It needs to be channeled and grounded in a way that it's not just running away with itself.

Lian Brook-Tyler  25:45

Yeah, the you mentioning cosmic ordering I am, I've got a really weird memory for certain things. And I don't remember, but Knoll Edmonds of all people wrote a book about it. And someone I knew had the book and had a picture of a telephone on it. Obviously, the idea that you're literally just calling up and ordering something, and I just suddenly had that kind of vision, remembering the phone on the cover. And I was like that, they'll say, oh, you know, we're talking about a conversation or relationship with spirit versus that, you know, like, literally just picking up the phone and like ordering really does put it into like, very stark context. Yeah,

Jez Hughes  26:25

and it's a demand. And, and cultures that do work with magic, shamanism is about an earth magic path. But it's simple, the offering has to be done first, the payment has to be made. So and then. And then the the, it's not, we don't use magic, also shamanicly, for our own benefit. It's always on behalf of the tribe. And it's also it's on behalf of the community. And it's also about survival. So it's not about grabbing more, it's about meeting the human needs of survival, whether it's hunting magic, weather magic, or healing magic, it's, it's to ensure the survival of the tribes. So because these cultures recognize that nature is abundant, and we are off, we, we we have this, we've given this, this blessing of this life, And and we have everything we need really all surrounding us. So the offerings, the ceremonies, the prayers are all about recognizing and praising life in that way, rather than trying to demand more, what we what we might, because then we're feeding into our kind of desires more, and they get human beings in trouble quite a lot.

Lian Brook-Tyler  27:49

Yeah, I was just thinking, there's a real, there's an insecurity driving so much of what we're, we've even desire, and it's kind of and it's, you know, that sense of there isn't enough, I'm not okay, then creates those behaviors. But what my sense is, and I'd love to whether you, you have seen this, there's something in the embodied action, as you say, of making offerings, that just naturally starts to shift that likely there has to be a thought come, first of all, I'm going to create this reciprocal relationship. But what I've experienced personally, but also seen in others, is as we start to have that kind of relationship where we are making offerings, it seems to create this sense of security in a sense of generosity, like it seems as though in the act of doing that something shifts in us where it feels safe to do that.

Jez Hughes  28:48

Yeah. I mean, to kind of use this modern term, I think most of our behavior and our actions are unconscious. So and it's the similar way that the placebo works, the idea of a sugar pill because the the pill has or drugs have got such a place in our collective consciousness that you take a drug if you're sick, and you get better. So when people take us sugar pill, even if they know it's a sugar pill, if they know it's a placebo, it's the very act of putting that in your mouth and swallowing it, which is associated on our in our culture with getting better, that it can be us profound, it can profoundly affect our physical self by by the placebo effect. So it's the same with with offerings, you can talk about it and people and it feels awkward at first because why am I given this offering here in nature? What is this about and people get self conscious about it? And it's about gradually through that act of giving something or the giveaway he does it? At a simple level , it takes it out of yourself. So you're not in that, like you say, that kind of fear based place of needing always needing something more, I need this in my life, I need this in my life, it's teaching you on a very deep level about, you can give, and there's an excess, if you like, there's an acceptance of everything. And the other thing is that it's about the offering is, and that's when they were doing the, like a sin, they're doing the mining in Grimes graves, that create creating these elaborate knives with this beautiful black Flint. So the other act of offerings is about creating beauty in the world. So you're so human beings, instead of creating functional, and we've gone to the extreme level of that functionality right now, that you're you're creating it, you use that creativity to create beauty. So you're feeding beauty with the world into the world. And that can be created in a song or, or, but it's never done on you, for you. And that's the other kind of the, so if someone is an amazing songwriter, for example, or very creator, or an artist of that, you can. And that's why I think we have this kind of idea of the tragic artists in our culture, because it's all about the individual and the individual is a genius, and they're haunted by their gifts, etc, etc. And it's very indulgent, emotionally and psychological as psychologically, but if that individual artists instead of, or songwriter, or whoever, that instead of aligning their whole identity around what they're creating, instead of I am this thing, I am the artist, I am the creator, instead of doing that, that instead it's a giveaway, it's an offering. So this, this, this, this thing that comes through me, it's not mine, and that's the same as shamanism, it's, the shaman doesn't use their energy to heal or to change or for magic, it's the gift of the the shaman the spirits, rather. And so that is an offering, that's the offering, and it becomes in about service. And so when you're making an offering to the spirits that work through me and recognize and also that that is it's not about me, it's not about and so it's, it's and then your life becomes an offering it becomes about service and giveaway rather than this kind of, I think we attached too much to these identities, whether it be creative, shamanic healer, blah, blah, blah. It's always a recognition that the real power and the real gifts come from outside of the human. I think that's human beings on on a simple egoic level that's healthy. So we don't get we don't believe our hype too much. We don't get caught up in this. keeps you humble. It keeps you down to earth.

Lian Brook-Tyler  33:12

Yeah, that seems the word humble says your theme of the day. We did our way through our Medicine Circle today and played the song you know, humble. Before the word Yeah, that was a song that we opened circle with. And there was much conversation about the word humble. So interested, it's worked its spirits into this conversation as well. Hmm. I think you've touched on this, but I would love to hear more on this slightly sort of paradoxical notion of we're taking from the earth and say, for example, that could be like, cut flowers, or fruit, and then giving back to the earth. And that does feel to me something was that paradoxical about that? Like, we're taking something to then give it back. So I'd love to know how you hold that that. Ah, like, not that I'm not expecting you to like solve the paradox. But just to say a bit more about kind of how we're actually are giving back not literally just kind of moving something from one place to another.

Jez Hughes  34:19

I think, I mean, that's where most people struggle with that idea that well, it comes everything comes from nature. Anyway. What? Who am I to give back? Some? Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's a that's quite a heady thing. I think. The point is, we're giving back something we would be using for ourselves, whether that's food, whether that's money, whether it's something that creates beauty, instead of so it's not that we're taken from the earth anyway, all of these things. Some, for example, flowers were taken from the earth to brighten up our house at home or whatever. All to remind us, I mean, flowers to the kind of quite a new offering, really, because but it's, but it's a recognition that whatever we taken, we reserve, I don't know, 10% or whatever what we've taken to give back, instead of just taking it 100%, or in some cultures, they might give back 50% of what they take a lot of cultures, and this is why developmental agencies or non government organizations, I met some, some people in Guatemala once in an indigenous village high up in the mountains, and I was chatting to the people working for this NGO, and they're trying to bring development to the indigenous people, and they're trying to build schools and everything, and the indigenous people drive them mad, because they would, they would get the money, and then they would spend on fiestas or offerings or giving back. And it's that, and they will, no, you have to, you have to think into the future you have to develop. And that's a very western mindset. And that Western mindset, whether it's colonialism, or a kind of mess, meant with the best intentions of an NGO, is still trying to impose this way of thinking upon the indigenous people. And the indigenous people are stubborn, because they realize there's no point then taking this for themselves, unless they're feeding. So most of their resourses, most of any spare money etc, goes into buying or friends that then are used to pay the gods. So it is more than your, you're just taking and moving things about, you're actually sacrificing. And these are cultures that sometimes can't feed their kids. So it's that is a huge if there, and they keep that in even in the most dire poverty, it's not like in suddenly, when everything they go through a famine or something, they would actually even pay more than to the, to the gods and to the spirits, because they're the ones it's a constant recognition. So it's easy for maybe a Westerner to grab a handful of change. And, and, and give a bit of an offering. But that's what's important that the offering is actually a sacrifice that it does come from a place of. And you see this again, I see this, the people that have the least are often the ones that give the biggest offerings. And you see this in socials, social situations, the poorest people are often the most generous, you go to a poor village in Greece or something, they'll share everything with you and they got nothing. And that is because that and that's what we've forgotten in the West, where we've become this kind of consumerst grabbing everything keeping hold of everything. And so it's not just about moving this from here to there. Because for someone where who has everything, then they might have to learn to make offerings in different ways they might have to, again, sacrifice, sort of fasting or sweating or push putting themselves in a situation where they're offering themselves because they've got even if they offered 1000s of pounds, it probably wouldn't mean much to them. So it's not about what the offering is. It's about the where it's coming from and how much of a sacrifice it actually is.

Lian Brook-Tyler  38:34

Hmm, yeah, I'm so glad we led on to into that because I think there can be a sense of almost, there's a certain kind of offering. That's right to give, like universally right to give and what you're suggesting there is actually the most powerful offering will be the one that is for us a real offering a real sacrifice. At various points for me that the biggest offering has been time, you know, when I'm got really busy life, you know, juggling, you know, children, dogs work and everything, to put all that to one side and create time to, in one way or another give an offering. That's the real sacrifice. And it feels it through each person to really look deeply as to like what that will be because it's very easy to give the offering that isn't really a sacrifice.

Jez Hughes  39:30

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that is, and that's okay on a general basis were given but I and that's what big ceremonies are about the ceremony in itself as an offering. It's to feed the sacred. It brings all the community together, each person sacrifices, their time, their energy. Then if it costs a lot through buying these offerings, sacrificing their money, etc, etc. So they sacrifice in order to create this this collective offering, which is the ceremony and that's where when people just kind of arrive at a ceremony and, and then leave with the arrive just before it starts and then leave just as an end and often missing the whole point of it's about that collective coming together and the collective offering. So for example, if someone is incredibly shy, an offering might be to sing in front of a group of people, that's a big offering for that person, because there, it's excruciating for a shy person to sing in public or to speak even or to, or to share something and but if it's done, we can take this concept away that I'm doing this for myself, No, it's my offering. And that, that difficulty that is, is coming through as part of the offering.

Lian Brook-Tyler  41:02

This is a slight tangent, but it feels feels important to say, you know, as as shamanism and sort of shamanic ceremonies are becoming more and more popular. My sense is that more of what you're describing, where people kind of rock up to a ceremony, you know, potentially take, you know, full hearted participation in the ceremony. But as you said, not been part of the kind of creation beforehand the offerings beforehand. And you know, I know people that go to, you know, sweats that held by, you know, whoever put on sweat, so they'll just rock up and have the sweat and the comparison to when we're in the woods, you know, the hours we spend, before we even set foot in the sweat. I would love to hear something that you feel is but how what what's that costing us like what's being created when when we are missing that and are just taking part in a ceremony without that first.

Jez Hughes  42:03

I think we're missing the, the deep nourishment of the, of the food of the ceremony. And hence, people can go from one ceremony to the next and they're chasing that high or whatever they're chasing some kind of connection that can happen in a ceremony. But it's it's a bit of a sugar rush if you like, as opposed to the when when it's about building community and and creating the ceremonies together the it spends hours or days beforehand, all coming together, doing the physical work creating everything that I think is much more long lasting nourishment, for human beings, because it's not just about and it's the classic without being too cynical that you can be in a ceremony and people can see these beautiful words and and talk about oneness and unity. And then as soon as the ceremony is over, they're getting the individual cards and can't get out there quick enough, or all that kind of generosity. I mean, didn't Jarvis Cocker spoke about that song about that in with the rave movement. And it was that and we're used to, we're used to that coming together in celebration or losing the kind of sense of self and boundaries then But then we can go back to a very individual and individualistic lives. And is, that's not going to change the world that's not going to no matter how much we have good intentions we have. It actually means being there when it's doing the difficult work together and cleaning up the ceremony afterwards. And again, it's it's it's a groundedness a solid grounding. So the so the lessons aren't just about and again, it's that thing, we're not just feeding off the spirits, we're not just opening ourselves, go feed me feed me feed me would again pay in in first and therefore there's much more as was that's some nightmare word for me the reciprocity. There's much more reciprocity so when and that actually nourishes us on a much deeper on a simple level human level. Most humans are although it's the opposite in our culture, it feels good to be generous. It feels good to give. It feels good because it feeds something in us that is that it's it's a win win situation.

Lian Brook-Tyler  44:45

Yeah. Oh, I love that I really do. So. You've touched on a number of examples of like things that we can offer and the deeper meaning in a kind of just tangible practical sense. If someone's listening to this and feeling like, Ah, yes, I can really now understand why I might want to start making offerings. What would you suggest as a kind of, you know, a simple offering practice to get started? Because I know some people will just kind of feel such awkwardness and I'm not doing it right, is there any point of doing it at all? And that what would you say in terms of like, just the invitation to begin

Jez Hughes  45:29

if you walk in, in nature, have a pocket full of coins or or take some sweet food or, or herbs, something that's meaningful to you, I mean, if people see offered tobacco, which you can do, but if you don't have a relationship with that tobacco, Herb and it's not sacred to you, then it's, it's just blind offerings, it's blind ritual, it's not important. So something that it means meaningful to you. And then so you're going into a woodland stop at the first tree, or the tree that really stands out to you and sense. Who's the guardians of this place? who's holding this place together? And then you can say, maybe it won't, it might be one of the trees that you have this sense that that that is a is an overseer of the woods is keeping everything in balance and watching over that, then you approach with reverence, take the coin, or the herb or whatever is the sweet food. And then obviously, chocolates, not a good idea, because it's not good for the animals in in in, sort of think about what is actually good for the animals, if it is food, because they will come and they will eat it. And then just just without too much fanfare, without too much, just just take the offering. Usually, we just put it around our head once because we give a bit of our energy as well with it. So we've put it through our energy and and then give it to the tree and just without too much fanfare and just say thank you. And then and then thank you. And you can also if you're going through nature like that you can ask permission, can I enter? Please, it's respect. It's, it's what's behind it is this, this this culture of respect. So in indigenous culture, the what is the social bonds between the humans and the different respected our elders, if you go into that culture, and you don't have a gift for that elder in a particular gift, that is actually really offensive. And so it's a way of smoothing the human relations as well, the communication between to say, I'd respect you as an elder and here is a gift, and that that keeps the whole social social, fabric functioning. For indigenous people, the spirits are just another aspect of that social fabric. So when we go with, with an offering and the right offering, we are actually saying to, to the elders, that is the tree or, or the river or the lake or the mountain, we're saying, I respect that you are my elder, you're much my elder and you had much more wisdom than than probably I could ever have, because I'm just a human. So it is uncertain, keeps that social fabric between the human world and the nonhuman world, the invisible world, it keeps that function and it's also a way of communication. It's so like, instead of just standing on a mountain, but how our amazing mountain, I'm showing them with this respectful offering in this gift to say, I recognize that you are the elder here. You you have much more power than I do, because you run you're much older, you're 1000s and 10s of 1000s Millions, maybe years old, you've seen so much I love his short lifetime, 70/80 years maybe. And so I can garner a tiny bit of wisdom hopefully, but there's mountain and with their right near the beginning of life as well. So it's a way it again, it's these different levels that just by you walking through the woods and acknowledging that tree, acknowledging that beautiful river, saying thank you, because water is life without the water. We have no lives and take some flowers or get a coin and put it into the into the water and say thank you, I acknowledge. Without you I don't exist. We it's Again, we're feeding, feeding, feeding. And it's an entity, it takes a lot of pressure off being human. Because you realize that you are a small, tiny cog in this vast tapestry of life that you.

Lian Brook-Tyler  50:21

Hello, this is Lian from the future. At this point in the recording Jesse's battery died, as he joked to me, perhaps he hasn't been making enough offerings for electricity, gods, but he did manage to get back online. And so we were able to pick back up from where we left off. So let's jump back into the past.

Jez Hughes  50:44

Yeah, I mean, I think all I was saying is that, that we just realized, do this as this act of communication with the gods, if you'd like to spirits, through offerings that were just this tiny piece in this vast tapestry of life. So it's a it's a, it's a recognition, through this communication through this simple act, that has so many different layers to it. It's yeah, it's a recognition of so much. And that's what the beauty is, it takes the pressure has been individuals and separate. So even the act, and that's why people feel awkward at first of give it up for animistic indigenous person, it's completely normal. But the awkwardness comes from this belief that somehow we are separate. And we're not related to the trees, to the rivers, to the mountain lakes, to the hills, to the, to the meadows and to the grasses, we're related to everything.  Yeah. I really love that we've closed here, because I was I was just thinking, yes, you're so right, that sense of us being so kind of like such a small piece of this much greater universe, and then simultaneously, that sense of not being alone, you know, like just having been surrounded by allies. Which is really the beauty of understanding life as an animist from enemies worldview, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And again, is that physical, physical realization of that, so it goes much deeper into the unconscious and much deeper into who we are. That because we were actually acting that out, we're performing that we're ritualizing that and so that means that that sense of aloneness, because people can sit there and, and it's it is easy to feel separate. It's easy to feel alone, especially in modern world, which is everything is about disconnection and separation. But to go into nature to share a meal to share a share your share your bounty, share your alcohol share whatever it is, which would the spirits is in that you are you're not alone. Your Community.

Lian Brook-Tyler  53:15

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yes, I do you know why I wondered, are we going to be able to do a whole episode on the topic of offerings? Like we could have carried on quite easily?

Jez Hughes  53:32

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I had no idea what it was gonna be about. So it's nice to Yeah, it's a huge subject. Like I say, it's really I think it's really important. I think it's a fundamental when Westerners approach shamanism or other spiritual practices. Just to remember this fiscalization of this pain in first, before expecting anything, and also takes the pressure there's so much spirituality is in the West. Now. It's all about personal and life enlightenment. And it's very, it's that's not important. For me. What's important is if you're feeding something, you're feeding your family, you're feeding your culture, or you're feeding your community. And it makes us it actually makes us human.

Lian Brook-Tyler  54:24

Hmm yeah. Oh, this has been so rich. So rich is such a I'm so glad we did. We did try to do our episode offerings as it turns out to be I think it's one of those ones that will be directing listeners back to over and over again for years like it really is, as you say, kind of so fundamental. So where can listeners find out more about you your work your books?

Jez Hughes  54:56

My books, my latest books called The Wisdom mental illness shamanism mental health and the renewal of the world and that's available in most big book shops you can order it on Amazon etc online wherever my website is www.secondsighthealing.com Second as in the number but with the word number vision I should just spell it out really can you just put it I'm sure you can put it down below.

Lian Brook-Tyler  55:38

watching the relief on your face when you managed to say and completely rested. A link will be in the show notes listeners. Thank you so much, Jez. Really, really appreciate it amazing.  Yeah, no, thank you, Lian. Yeah, as always, okay. Take care.  Thank you. Oh, my goodness, I love that episode so much, who are the best bits. There are two important levels to making offerings. Firstly is a thank you giving back when we as humans take so much. And secondly, as a way of slowing progress so that we don't make things so quickly that we're taking at a rate that throws things out of balance. Making offerings is an embodied conversation with spirit, it takes us out of our heads and into our bodies and into life. Where we give, we also give back to ourselves, we know our place in the universe and that we're not alone. If you'd like to get notes and links for everything we spoke about this week, do hop on over the show notes and there at primal happiness.co/episode383. And as I mentioned earlier the next week in the wild crucibles to open is waking the wild sovereign early next year. As always, it will sell out so if you are feeling the call to sovereignty and actualizing your inner king or queen archetype, go reddish fish your interest now and you'll be the first to hear when it opens for application. And that's at primal happiness.co/wtws. If you don't want to miss out on next week's episode, head on over to Apple podcast Stitcher, or your app of choice and hit that subscribe button. That way you'll get each episode delivered straight to your device as soon as it's released. Thank you so much for listening. You've been wonderful. Catch you again next Tuesday.

We’ve been on the air for 7 years and have a treasure trove of over 400 episodes! Dive in…

 THE BE MYTHICAL PODCAST

With hundreds of episodes to choose from, illuminating your path with myth, magic, archetypes, and practical ways to thrive in this crazy modern world. Subscribe to our free weekly podcast ranked in the 1.5% most popular shows in the world!