How women can draw out masculine virtues in men (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Hello my beautiful mythical old souls and a huge warm welcome back or welcome if this is your first time here.

What if the key to unlocking a man's true strength lies in how we as women show up in relationship to him? In this episode, I'm joined once again by the wonderful Arthur Haines.

Arthur is a Maine hunting fishing and recreation guide, forager, ancestral skills mentor, author, public speaker and mechanical researcher. One of the things I absolutely adore about Arthur is he just doesn't only talk about things, including this instance, masculinity. He very much is devoted to living it fully. From his experience as a hunt and provider to his deep knowledge of ancestral wisdom, he brings a rare and embodied perspective on what it truly means to be a man. Together we explore the foundational principles of masculinity, strength, bravery, mastery and honour, and how these qualities can either be suppressed or called forth in a man. And so this isn't just about men, it's about women too. If we desire a man who embodies these virtues, our role in allowing and encouraging them, could be crucial.

We discuss how trust, receptivity and honoring polarity creates space for masculinity to thrive, while competition and control can diminish it.

This conversation is an invitation to reflect on the roles we as women play in shaping the men in our lives. Are we making space for them to show up fully or are we stifling the very qualities we long for? Let's find out together.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, I will very soon, and I mean very soon, I keep promising, but it is very soon now, be opening the doors to my brand new crucible for women called Beauty Potion, the alchemical antidote to the beauty wound. Awaken your mythic beauty. I will be sharing much more about it very soon, but for now.

If you'd like to find out a little bit more and read your interest, can go along to bemythical.com slash beauty And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world, and would benefit from guidance, support and kinship, come join our Academy of the Soul, UNIO. Find out more and join us by going to bemythical.com slash UNIO or click the link in the description.

And now back to this week's episode, let's dive in.

Lian (02:52)

Hello, Arthur. Welcome back.

Arthur Haines (02:55)

Well, I'd say thanks for bringing me back. I love having a chance to talk with you, so I appreciate the invitation.

Lian (03:02)

Hmm. Well, I'm already just from the conversation we were just having. And as I just saying, I nipped off to go and get some water and I had my earphone in and I heard your conversation with your daughter and I was like, there's something really apt about the way I heard you speak to your daughter in terms of...

my sense of the man that you are devoted to being and what we're going to speak about. could really hear that in the way that you spoke to your daughter not knowing that I could hear you and so I really feel just so open and receptive to this conversation and to you.

Arthur Haines (03:42)

Well, here we follow the practice that all humans are sovereign. And that means that children have all the rights and privileges that adults do. That's not to say they get to do anything they want, because adults can't do anything they want. They can't injure other people. They can't break other people's belongings just as examples. just because I'm a parent or I'm older or I'm larger than her, does not give me the right to speak to her in a way that some parents do speak to their children. And we all lose our patience at some point. I'm not claiming to be this perfect saint of a father, but the basis for the way that we interact with everybody in this household is sovereignty.

Lian (04:16)

Mmm.

I could really hear that in what you were saying. So, last time we spoke, we dived into all things divine masculinity, the warrior archetype, I guess a more sort of ancient traditional role of men in a community. And we sort of started to touch on this idea of, guess, masculine virtues. And I think we're going to pick up the thread of that in this conversation and then start to talk about the bit. And I'm really excited about this. And we've had a bit of kind of conversation back and forth about the, you know, potential challenges of doing this. you know, what's being asked of women in the relationship to that? We'll get into that in a moment. But let's start with what you are feeling about our virtues, what you're devoted to and I'm looking forward to this.

Arthur Haines (05:37)

Yeah, here's where it starts for me is if you look at what people say are qualities that they might like to see in a mature man. And Americans were actually polled this. What are the traits they'd like to see in a mature man? The number one thing was honesty. And that sounds wonderful, but is that a trait that we only want in men? Or do we want that in any mature human?

And I'd argue that's an ungendered trait we wanted in all humans. That does not define a man separate from a woman. They might have different virtues, if you will, that specifically define them. And then there are these that we would like to see in any mature person. You know, on that list was physical attractiveness. And, you know, we can banter back and forth about the importance of this, but attractiveness does

Lian (06:08)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Arthur Haines (06:35)

at its core have something to do with health and genetic health through the generations and what's been passed on to a person, their physical hygiene, and obviously keeping care of yourself helps prevent sickness, infection, and things of that nature. So yes, physical attractiveness might be an important trait, but again, is that a male trait? And I'd argue it isn't. It's just a general thing that we would like to see in a mature human.

So when you ask about the virtues of men, I'm talking about those that I think men exemplify and really more define a masculine archetype than a feminine archetype. And the answer I'm going to give is not one that I would say that I have thought about long enough to decide if there aren't others that need to be on there. I think I might have shared with you last time, Lian, that

Lian (07:06)

Er.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (07:33)

I'm really on this exploration of masculinity right now and you're witnessing the thoughts that are coming forward. It's not like I'm professing to be the expert and you should follow me and no one else. So I've read and have been listening to a lot of different stuff that's put forth by folks, but I noticed there's a lot of bias and those biases include like the ungendered traits that I just spoke to you about or they They assume that men have always competed against other men in a way that there has been an alpha male and a beta male and these types of stereotypes, which is just flat out not true, particularly if we were to look at indigenous peoples around the world prior to colonization. We learned that there was a very different way of interacting with other members of the community. And we didn't see this, I'm going to dominate.

Lian (08:23)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (08:32)

everyone around me, that sort of stereotype that we see today, that's the alpha male, the dominant male, the one who takes charge. Well, it was no one person's business to be in charge. These were communal decisions made by a community. So I guess I'm also trying to say that while there's been some wonderful gems that I've read in many books on masculinity, there's a whole bunch of other material that reflects the biases of this time.

Lian (08:34)

So...

you

Arthur Haines (09:01)

In other words, assuming that the social hierarchies that are in place now have always been in place. And that's simply not true. So with that caveat, one of the things that...

Lian (09:03)

Yes.

Mmm.

As in, can I just check what you're saying here? Because I think I'm getting it, but I think it's a really important point that if we're asking what virtues are valued in men, that in itself is going to be a product of how we've set up this society that isn't necessarily a deeper truth of a man or a masculine archetype.

Arthur Haines (09:34)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and what I'll present here, which is not of my own creation, is something that would be useful whether we're talking about wilderness living or whether we're talking about urban living. They just might manifest slightly differently. And so there's a gentleman, Jack Donovan, who put forth these tactical virtues. And that was kind of maybe a funny name, but

Lian (09:45)

Mm.

Hmm.

Grrr.

Arthur Haines (10:11)

that's his word for these. And there were these four values and they were strength, bravery, courage, and honour. And these are four values that really speak to men and the way they have arranged themselves in various groups, whether we're talking about people who protected the perimeter of the tribe, people who went to war, people who protected their families, these are are virtues that were required of men. But it isn't just about men committing violence to protect. There are also virtues that we can see being used to gain a mastery, if you will, of a job or at hunting and angling or whatever they do that allows them to provide for their family and for their community.

Lian (10:57)

Hmm

Arthur Haines (11:09)

And so these virtues, strength, bravery, courage, and honour, help men essentially create a mastery of what allows them to provide, protect their family, and to love their woman. And I think these things are relatively self-explanatory, but we could dive into them if you want. I'd like to.

Lian (11:10)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (11:37)

I guess add that honour is what overlays all of them. And honour changes by the culture that you're in, but honour dictates how the strength, bravery, and courage will be applied. And if that honour allows somebody to use those tactical virtues to dominate women, well, they will do that. We don't have to let that be one of the honour codes

Lian (11:54)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (12:06)

of men applying their strength, their courage, their bravery, their mastery of a particular trait, if you will. So I want to repeat those because when I talk about bravery and courage, that's really the same thing. And I think I've slipped on that just a bit. So I mean to say strength, bravery or courage, mastery, and then honour, which dictates how those will be used.

Lian (12:17)

Mmm, yes that makes sense.

was about to ask you that.

Mastery.

that makes sense. When you say honour, would you say that that's kind of is informed to an extent by the values? Like there's a kind of values of what is valued in that culture, what is valued by the man and then the honour is in upholding those values.

Arthur Haines (12:37)

These A really good point to be made here that strength, bravery, mastery, and honour are actually without morality. These are amoral. And the reason I say that is because how these will be applied in, a group of men that are following Genghis Khan are very different than how they'll be applied in a group of men who was following and pick another historical figure.

Lian (13:12)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

yeah.

Arthur Haines (13:28)

George Washington, or it doesn't matter who we want to talk about, or a character like Sitting Bull from a Native American tribe. These will be applied based on the honour codes of that culture. So to be clear, you can be very good at developing your strength, your courage, your mastery of skills.

Lian (13:40)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (13:56)

and having an honour code that binds all those, but you could potentially, one culture would define you as being a very terrible man. And so often we need to distinguish, sometimes there is a difference between being a good man and being good at being a man.

Lian (14:04)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (14:20)

And obviously the honour codes that I would apply for how men use their strength, their courage and their mastery would be very different. It should be benefiting their family as a whole, not just them. It should be benefiting their communities and it should be benefiting the land around them that they rely upon and doing those things in a way that we're not.

You know, we're not harming those things in the long term.

Lian (14:52)

Yeah, that really makes so much sense. do you feel it's worth, I think in some ways, those virtues are self-explanatory, but do you feel it's worth just giving a bit of definition to each of them before we move into what we were talking about in terms of a woman's role in relationship to those qualities?

Arthur Haines (15:17)

Yeah, mean, strength is just a very simple way of trying to describe the physical attributes of a man. And I think it's important that people sort of acknowledge that on average men have a greater muscle mass that can be used for physical tasks. But we also have a different proportionally, we have a different type of muscle than women. Women tend to have what's called a type one or these slow twitch muscles.

Lian (15:34)

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (15:47)

to a greater proportion. And these are more designed for longevity. In other words, doing things for long periods of time, whereas men have these fast-twitch muscles that set them up for doing things explosively. And things like fighting and occasionally, you know, when it comes time for hunting and doing various things, those fast twitch muscles can be really useful for the types of things that men have traditionally done more of than women. And so that strength would also lead to cardiovascular conditioning. It would lead to sort of a drive to stay in shape and all of the physical features that would set men up. Bravery or courage is that obvious

Lian (16:26)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Arthur Haines (16:43)

to not shrink in the face of challenge, to stand firm for something that your honour dictates that you stand in the face of something very terrible, something that would potentially allow that man to be injured or even killed. Bravery is what says, I'm going to stand up for this regardless of the consequences to myself. And so without the bravery,

Lian (16:54)

And.

Which of course is very much the conversation we had last time.

Arthur Haines (17:14)

Yes, yes. And so without the bravery, we shrink from the challenges that face us as opposed to standing firm. The mastery is obviously all of the techniques that we use, whether that be for war, for hunting, for our careers, and all of the tools that we need to use to accomplish those tasks. Mastery is really important. It's men are driven to

Lian (17:15)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (17:43)

essentially attain a high efficacy with all of the things that they do that keep their families alive and nourished. so mastery is one of those tactical virtues. And then again, honour is that dignity, that integrity, all of those things that keep a man focused on those three virtues. and doing it in a way that benefits, again, their family, their community, and the land. And it keeps them in check so that those are not used for, quote, bad purposes. In order for honour to work, it really has to be, there's a way of attaining honour, and it has to be an exclusive group. Because if anybody can enter it, what's the value of it?

In other words, men need to do things based on this code of honour that put them in an honour group, if you will. And it has to be exclusive, and there has to be ways to enter it and ways that you can be removed from it by not upholding your code of honour. So hopefully that helps explain those four tactical virtues a bit.

Lian (18:41)

Hmm

Hmm.

Hmm.

it really does. I was also thinking there can be real power in inverting things, i.e. looking at something and thinking, okay, so say for example you had a man who had three of those virtues but had the, you know, had the opposite, you know, it was like the reversal of one of the virtues, what would that create and I've been kind of as you've been talking I've been kind of mentally playing with like if it was sort of like levers if you were to sort of like move on a down but the other three like you know he could use all of that for ill if you moved say strength down he'd be well intended but he wouldn't be able to accomplish any of what he actually intended to and I was thinking they really do work so there's such truth in what you've described because they kind of They are, you can see that they all have a place, they need to all be in place for that to work.

Arthur Haines (20:06)

Right, mean the antonyms, know, like weakness, fear, you know, what would be the opposite of not having mastery would be incompetence and then dishonor. We don't want to see any of those things in a masculine figure that is there to again, provide, protect his family and love his woman.

Lian (20:19)

Mmm.

Yeah. So, I sort feel like you teased me before we started the show because you were like, I'm not going to tell you about Virtue yet because you were like, you might be surprised. And I love what you've shared, really do. And it's kind of naturally created the conversation that we were intending to have as in, you know, this idea of, if women...

Arthur Haines (20:34)

Mm-hmm.

you

Lian (20:59)

like the sound of a man with those virtues, what then can a woman do to draw those out? And we've created that very thing as in I'm hearing what you're saying and I'm like, yes, that sounds good to me. How might I draw those out in a man? So we are here having the very conversation kind of real time.

Arthur Haines (21:22)

Well, I mean, we could sort of just end the whole podcast really quickly by saying, let that man provide, let him protect and receive his love if you're a woman. And that's kind of the end of it. Those are the brief notes of how we'd accomplish that. But obviously there's not much for detail in any of that. So how do we go about drawing these characters out of a man? And the problem is it requires you

Lian (21:34)

You

Arthur Haines (21:52)

as a woman to put trust in masculinity. And this is the first massive obstacle that we'll run into because women have every reason to not trust masculinity, not because men are inherently evil and bad and they're the cause of everything that's gone wrong in the world, but because our cultures don't hold men accountable to an honour code. I mean, let's face it, you know,

Lian (21:56)

Mm-mm.

Hmm

Arthur Haines (22:22)

A man who lies to a woman, he's deceitful in order to get her into the bed so that he can sleep with her. He has friends that will literally praise him for doing that because there's another notch on his belt. I mean, that's not honour. That's not masculinity either. That's deceit. That's lying. There's nothing there to do with being a man. That's everything to do with being an immature, terrible, lying person. And so,

Lian (22:35)

Hmm

Hmm

Arthur Haines (22:52)

There's been so much of this that is called masculinity, when in fact that isn't, that's just deep immaturity at every level, that now women have no reason to trust males. But have faith they exist, or how about in my case, they want to exist. And so there are people out there who want to do better.

Lian (23:14)

Hmm

Arthur Haines (23:19)

by their lovers and by their families, by their community, by the land that they rely upon for their very living, the earth, if you will. And so we're striving to undo that cultural education that we've received, which is deplorable, and try to navigate through all of this, here's what masculinity really is. No, it's this, no, it's this, this is, and so much of it. is influenced by what feminism wants a man to be or what people believe men have always been and so on. know that that's one of the obstacles that we're going to run into out there. And it's such a big topic, Lian, because women get fooled by

Lian (23:56)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (24:18)

things that men do. Let me give you a great example. So this guy goes out and he buys this massive jacked up big gas guzzling truck that's really loud and has smoke stacks on it and it's got pinstriping all over it. And that is used as a proxy for his financial success. That's the man I want. He's demonstrating a mastery of his career because look what he spent his money on. But then step back.

Lian (24:37)

Hmm

Arthur Haines (24:47)

Is that truck that isn't being used for his career for like forestry agriculture construction? It's just it's perfect. It's shiny. It's always in, you know, clean, beautiful condition so that he can drive around and show off. Is that not just a calling to his ego or does it demonstrate a financial impulsivity or an inability to plan for the future because he's spending a hundred dollars at the gas tank?

Lian (24:58)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm

Arthur Haines (25:16)

to fill it up every single time. This is based on current US prices here, obviously. 

But these things that women sometimes use as a proxy to determine a man's mastery and his success can often be a demonstration of traits that they do not want in a mature man. And so we have to understand that you can be fooled by this, and that adds another layer of complexity. So with that, let's sort of jump in.

Lian (25:37)

Hmm. Yes, yes, the opposite,

No.

Arthur Haines (25:50)

For a woman to draw out a masculine man, one who again understands that they are equal in terms of their personal sovereignty and he wants to provide for her, protect her, he wants her to be serene and calm and happy and fulfilled, if he wants that the woman first has to believe that there is a reason that we have two sexes.

Lian (26:17)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (26:19)

Because this is not an obvious thing anymore, right? Whether you believe in evolution, whether you believe in God, the Great Spirit, whatever name that you have for this great mystery, there has to be some belief that there is a reason that we have these two types of human. That has to be the first underlying assumption, because you will act completely differently if you think that this is just some sort of arbitrary construct.

Lian (26:24)

Mmm.

Yes, I love that you've said this. We were chatting before we started recording about that being a kind of underlying premise for this conversation to even be of benefit. And as we were saying, you know, it's not as though either of us wants to force opinions down anyone's throat, but in order for this conversation to be of value, to be received,

As you're saying, there is an invitation here, but it only even makes sense from that place of, as you say, of recognising, again, this is an invitation personally, like I do recognise there being a real beauty and value and perfection in there being men and women. And so for me, what you're saying is something that is I hold dearly and...

is something that is as true for me as so many other things that just are ways that I live my life and align with. But if that's not the case for someone listening, that's okay. Probably this episode may still be of use in some other way, but probably not in the way that you're intending it. I think that's...

Arthur Haines (28:04)

That's right.

Lian (28:14)

absolutely true and I think worth saying again particularly in the culture we're in where these things aren't necessarily all agreed upon.

Arthur Haines (28:24)

I mean, Gaia, our earth mother has manifested a masculine and a feminine both in body and physiology and in spirit. And let's accept that and let's celebrate that duality and let's celebrate the polarity that it creates and move forward with that. So that's one. The next one will sound shocking at first, but we have to...

Lian (28:42)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (28:53)

also accept that we're not equal. And when we hear that, it's like, wait, what are you talking about? And I'm talking about in our traits. There is a massive body of literature, of scientific literature, that documents that men and women do things differently. They have different physiologies. They have different strengths and different weaknesses. And that's OK.

Lian (29:02)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (29:19)

Let's apply those strengths, recognise the weaknesses so that together we form a whole human. And it is so crazy, you know, we often bring up muscle mass and things as one of those things that we're different in, but there are so many that people aren't aware of. And one of the ones that recently enjoyed studying is that men and women see differently. Men catch motion.

Lian (29:46)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (29:49)

Faster than women do they're better at detecting it and certain fine details. Whereas women are much better at perceiving colour than men are and this is the whole The joke that we do in this house is you know, you go to the refrigerator you open it up the guy looks for it he doesn't find it. The woman walks back and goes it's right there, right? This happens all the time It's happened with every partner I've ever had and I've never known why and that's because she has finer colour perception, she can see more and greater detail in colour. Now, I'm suggesting that given that men have spent more of their time hunting than women, women spent more of their time gathering, there are problems with the stereotype, but there's also some truth in it, that looking for sedentary organisms, when you're trying to find the exact colour green of that edible leaf,

Lian (30:21)

you

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (30:47)

out of a sea of green, it has benefited women to have greater colour acuity than men who are detecting motion of movement from an animal that may be something that they're desiring to kill to bring back to the community for food. And this is very simplified, but it's the way I think about it and think of how there's an evolutionary basis for this. I mean, aside from all of the different

Lian (31:05)

Hmm

Hmm

Arthur Haines (31:15)

relative proportions of hormones in our body and our physical traits that we display, we are not the same. And that's okay. Now let's use that to our advantage. Because by having two different forms, sexual forms, if you will, we can really specialize in different things that one collective homogenous being simply couldn't accomplish.

Lian (31:28)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (31:44)

If you're better at this, you might be worse at that. There are linked features that just can't be exemplified in all directions.

Lian (31:48)

Mmm, sort of co-exist, yeah. Yes, it makes so much sense. I love that example of the difference in sight. I find things like that so fascinating. I guess on one hand, one could say, well, we're no longer living in a way where men are hunting and women are gathering. And yet the differences are still there.

Arthur Haines (31:53)

So the first two, go ahead.

Yeah.

Lian (32:15)

And so, and of course this is in some ways, it's literally true, but it's also kind of like, it symbolises other differences we have that we still have. you know, it's, I think recognising that does allow some sort of grace and acceptance of these differences. And as you say, how ultimately we can use them.

Arthur Haines (32:36)

agreed. So in no particular order, feel like the first ones that I'm speaking about are are kind of a belief and acceptance in masculinity and femininity that they exist and they're things that we can celebrate and embrace. So in no particular order, let's jump into some other ones. If you want to draw the divine masculine out of your man. And the first one is Don't compete with your man.

Competition brings out the masculine. It brings out the drive to succeed. Or if we want to frame it a different way, the want to win. There's a problem and I want to solve it. And competing with your partner sets you up as adversaries in your own household.

Lian (33:25)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (33:36)

And what's going to happen is we have to either masculinize the woman so that she can step up to compete, or we have to feminize the man so that he won't compete. In either case, you're destroying the polarity and not embracing again this duality of the masculine and feminine. Partners shouldn't be competing in their own home.

Lian (33:36)

Hmm

I completely agree with that and as you were talking I was thinking in my experience it has typically been and I'm talking personally in the past for me much less so these days but I'm talking about personally but also what I've witnessed in other women it does tend to be women who tend to want to compete with men rather than the other way around.

I very rarely experience men initiating that kind of competition dynamic between us. I can't actually think of an example, it may have happened, but it seems to be much rarer that a man would instigate that competitive dynamic with a woman than vice versa.

Arthur Haines (34:47)

Right. And so this requires a degree of letting go of control. Something that I'm not claiming that either partner should have. But in this modern day, there is the illusion of control and it can be had by anybody in the house. And the reality is if you want to draw out that divine masculine, letting go of the control and placing your trust.

Lian (34:55)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (35:15)

in the masculine, which is again, as we talked about early on, that's a very scary thing to do given this track record of men. But for masculinity to emerge, it requires that trust. And I try to use simple examples like when I was a young teenager, a very young man, when somebody

Lian (35:22)

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (35:41)

who was not a member of my family, first gave me the keys to their house. Essentially, I could enter it and do anything I wanted to at any time I wanted to. I had access to it. That's the first time it dawned on me, well, this person has put a lot of trust in me. I can't let them down now. And hopefully that example from my life of that, like, I'm giving you the privilege to my home. Now you step up.

Lian (35:59)

Hmm

Hmm

Arthur Haines (36:10)

and be of a trustworthy, honorable person so that you're not having parties in my house and burning it down kind of thing. And that was a really special

Lian (36:18)

and

Arthur Haines (36:18)

thing that happened to me. Somebody put their trust in me and I had to step up. And that's the same thing that the feminine needs to do to draw out the masculine. So that's one.

Lian (36:30)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (36:32)

You know, that idea of letting go of control, also, most of the people that I know that are really trying to embody their feminine don't have a lot of interest in being the leader anyways.

Lian (36:50)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (36:51)

The problem is the leader requires to make all of these decisions. I mean, understanding that it's a stereotype, but it's been the case with every female partner I've ever had. For example, we go into a restaurant, I look, that's what I want, I'm done, I can order. And they're left with decision paralysis. But this one could be like, And there's a really tough time sort of navigating all of these choices. And in fact, I've had partners who having too many choices was simply and actually very stressful to their well-being. And I feel that men are just able to sort of sort some of this without taking that stress on of that decision paralysis. So again, that letting go of control, that Don't worry about competing. It's all very important in sort of bringing out that masculine. My partner will even ask me sometimes to make decisions for her. And this is my tip, right? And sometimes that even includes

Lian (38:02)

I that too. I do exactly. I really struggle. Yeah, I will say I'm, you know, like, I'll sometimes be able to narrow it down to two like, literally the restaurant example you gave, where I'm like, I think it's one of those two. And then I'll say to say my husband, which of these two do you think I should go for? And it's just like, once you said it's like, yep, okay, wonderful. But yeah, I really relate to that.

Arthur Haines (38:08)

Yeah. Right. But there again is the trust, right? I get to prove, have I been paying attention to what you've ordered in the past? Do I want you to have a pleasing dining experience tonight? Do I want you to enjoy your time with me? If so, I'd better order correctly. And so this is, again, that putting the trust in the man that then sets up the man to say, need to be looking out for my feminine partner here. These are just all part of it. OK, the next one has to do with providing. And let the man provide. Now, that doesn't mean that he has to provide everything and you can't do anything for yourself. That's not what I'm saying. But it's OK to let that person do

Lian (39:06)

in

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (39:25)

be even the primary income earner. You can switch it around in your house if you want, but men have abilities in this arena that many women don't. And the reason is men can ompartmentalize. I can take very difficult situations, put them aside for a moment and continue working. In fact, study demonstrates, and these are again based on peer reviewed studies, that men can continue working longer under adverse conditions before experiencing burnout. So women experience burnout faster. And men can also be as effective as they need to be at their job approaching burnout much longer than women. Now this isn't to say that women are lesser. They have their divine talents. But that sort of grueling tedium, I just got to do this because this is what my family needs.

Lian (39:59)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (40:18)

This is how I provide for them. It's just something men, generally speaking, are really good at. Let them use those masculine talents to just get the job done under whatever conditions they find themselves in to be a provider for your home. Yeah, let him use those abilities.

Lian (40:27)

Hmm.

It's so interesting as I'm listening to you because on the one hand, personally, you're preaching to the converted and I have no argument personally whatsoever of what everything you're saying. It's how I live, but it's also kind of just what feels true to me as well beyond that.

But I'm also aware that we're living in a culture where that isn't how we've set the culture up. There's lots of reasons why that just wouldn't work for many women in relationship, particularly ones that kind of want to have a career or are with men who don't provide for whatever reason.

And it's not that I'm expecting you to kind of, you know, completely change our culture so all of those things work. But I'm kind of aware that there's any time that we're talking about these kind of ways that we could align and more harmoniously, we have got the challenge that for many people, even if they want that, of course, again, if someone's listening, they're like, this isn't to me, that's completely okay. But even if they do if they're liking the sound of what you're saying it's a challenge because we're in a culture that is kind of we've we've ended up with a kind of I guess a less conscious way of being in relationship to these things. A lot of it sort of, we've sort of developed into a place where just in order to be in a relationship of this kind is not, yeah, it just doesn't look accessible for many people, I suppose, which in some ways is a wonderful reason why we're having this conversation, but I'd just love to know your thoughts in relationship to that.

Arthur Haines (42:45)

right

I guess I would say that to start this is men certainly have a desire to compete and to succeed. We're not going to pretend that doesn't exist, but the culture keeps the ego that could be associated with constant winning and constant success in check. And we spoke briefly last time about that idea of reverse dominance in many, indigenous cultures where a successful hunter is shamed for how scrawny and unhealthy the animal looks despite the fact that it may be this massive thing as a way of keeping humility. Well, we don't have that in our cultures, right? It's the reverse. We reward success. We reward all of these types of winning.

Lian (43:30)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (43:45)

to the extent that now everyone wants it. And that includes many women. And if you have, say, a group of women, I've watched this happen, or it could be a mixed group of people, what's your job? Well, I'm the vice president of such and such, and what's your job? I'm the marketing director for so and so, and what's your job? I'm a stay at home mom. And there's sort of this, next, what's your job? It's not even valued. Our culture doesn't see that as success and winning.

Lian (43:50)

Hmm

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (44:15)

And because it's been devalued so much, the person who's literally doing the most important thing, preparing the next generation, well, first of all, giving birth to the next generation, raising them, nurturing them, and preparing them to be mature humans is now something that we just literally funnel off to babysitters, nannies, public schools, colleges, and so on. It's being missed because we have

Lian (44:27)

Mmm.

you

Arthur Haines (44:44)

They're not masculine values of look at my status, but that masculine drive to succeed in that which we're doing. So we've got this distorted masculine energy that now everybody's taking on. And this is one of my problems, I'll say, with certain types of feminine, Lian, is that they have now suggested that

Lian (44:55)

Bye.

Arthur Haines (45:11)

Women should also get into this rat race of seeking a higher rung on the social hierarchy because of their job status and their plaque and the title on the door. All they've done is just built in an incredibly stressful world for women. Men don't live as long as women do. You don't want that. Why on earth do you want to compete against all these people?

And let's be clear, considering this to be something that is lending equality to our culture, that's a complete farce. That is completely untrue because the women who become vice presidents and CEOs of companies have access to much more wealth and privilege than those who are working in a mill somewhere. There's still inequality built right into what's happening.

So I guess I'm not, you know, to summarize that quickly, we're taking masculine traits that have been left to run wild because the culture doesn't have an honour code that keeps it in check. And we're saying women jump into the fray too. This is how you're going to earn status. It's all ego. It's all ego. And yes, I do understand that there are homes that need two incomes to survive. I'm not claiming that doesn't exist, but

Lian (46:32)

Yes.

Arthur Haines (46:39)

many homes could do better with. the masculine figure working full time and overtime and the feminine figure potentially only working part time so that she has more time to give to home, family, outdoor pursuits, whatever it is that gives her calmness and serenity, joy, because let's face it, if we take those away from either the masculine or the feminine, the home becomes a very stressful, chaotic, place that no one wants to be in, and that includes the children. And so there's ways for women to earn income and still do so in a way that allows the man to not even have to be the biggest provider, but to still feel like I am here for my family. I'm essentially completing one of the

Lian (47:15)

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (47:43)

major things that as a man that I need to do, that is to have the purpose to provide for his family.

Lian (47:51)

I really love what you've said in terms of it isn't even that these masculine qualities run wild are even conducive to men flourishing. It doesn't work for either. And yet it's sort of become like this is the benchmark that everyone should be going for, but actually it doesn't serve anyone, including men.

Arthur Haines (48:08)

That's right.

Lian (48:20)

I think that's a really important point to make. the time's flown by, we're kind of coming up on time. What would you say that is important for us to make sure that we've covered before we close?

Arthur Haines (48:39)

Well, I have just a few others and I can be brief. mean, I would say except that in most cases, a man is much better suited to protecting his family than a woman is. And that is, that does not just come from generally a physical superiority that exists, but it comes from testosterone's amplifying effects that can produce a directed aggression.

Lian (48:52)

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (49:06)

an ability to do violence on behalf of their family that might be more difficult for people that are trying to avoid all senses of conflict and those kinds of things in their life with testosterone helps us deal with these things. I would say that the feminine receives, right? mean, right down to both literally and metaphorically, the man penetrates, the woman receives.

Lian (49:07)

Hmm

Arthur Haines (49:36)

be the receiver, be in receivership of his love and all that comes with his love. But maybe this is the, this is really important that we could potentially end on. In my view of masculinity and femininity, men create the vision and women steer the vision. Now they're both equally important. I'm not saying one is above the other.

It has always been the case in my life, Lian, that people have come to me based on that which I'm doing in my profession. It's never been the other way around. When I worked as a mountain guide teaching rock and ice climbing, I attracted people who wanted to do that. When I was a forager, I attracted people who wanted to do that. There is a...

I guess a desire for women who want to integrate with a man who holds this vision of how we can move through the world. But then the woman needs to find a man who will trust her and her words as well, because that's how the woman steers the vision. Let's face it. Women often have senses that many men don't,

an empathy, an intuition. They catch problems that the man might be missing long before they've ever cropped up. At least this has been the case in my life. And there was this wonderful quote by a lady named Namaste Moore who goes, where he is, she is not. And where he is not, there she is. And again, using those

Lian (51:03)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Arthur Haines (51:32)

creator, those evolutionary, again, however you want to look at them, those talents that have been given to a man and those talents that have been given to a woman in order to build this wonderful life together. that feminine intuition is the guide and that's why she's able to steer the vision towards something really wonderful and really powerful. Sometimes what women can do, it's beyond logic, right? It goes well beyond what can be explained. Like how did you ever know that? And that's one of their divine gifts. And it just, there doesn't even have to be.

Lian (52:10)

and

Arthur Haines (52:16)

scientific evidence for this. We all know that it exists and happens on a frequent basis. So find a man who will listen to your words so that you can steer that vision that has been created. The man starts it, but it's the woman that keeps it going in the direction that it needs to go.

Lian (52:37)

I just want to ask you something about what you've just said there because, I think this does align to other things you've said, but I just want to see. So in my experience, I've seen that although I would agree with what you just said in terms of the man having and holding the vision, often the vision itself is inspired. by a desire to meet the needs, the desires of the woman. And so there is a kind of, there is that that kind of initiates even the vision. And then I think you're quite right. The vision is almost in response to how can I create this world that the woman desires or needs, and then everything else you've said. completely make sense. Would you agree that that's how it looks to you as well?

Arthur Haines (53:39)

I would agree that in many cases that is exactly what happens. I I wouldn't say that I became a plant biologist because I thought that would make me extra sexy to certain women. But maybe the way that I go about it and the way that I try to succeed is certainly trying to create something that

Lian (53:55)

But did it?

Arthur Haines (54:08)

both benefits the standing people, the plants that I speak for because they don't have a voice, but that success is also to clearly to help attract someone that I can have a wonderful life with. No, I do very much agree with what you said. I think it's part of that whole discussion of how men and women create, interact, guide, and maintain the vision that is there for the home.

Lian (54:14)

Mmm.

Arthur Haines (54:38)

or the community. And I just leave it at like, I know many women having trust in masculinity is a very difficult thing. And I'd like to just point out that because you're not experiencing it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And there may be things that you too are doing that aren't making masculinity emerge. Why is it gone now? What is the

Lian (54:41)

Hmm. Yes.

Hmm.

Arthur Haines (55:07)

Cosmic lesson in why the divine masculine seems to have been vacant for so long What what is the overall lesson that our society needs or that the feminine needs or that the masculine needs? I hopefully I'm making that clear that I think sometimes that these things have bigger purposes and I do believe that What's happening to men and what's happening to women is not solely the fault of one sex

Lian (55:08)

Hmm.

it.

Good.

Arthur Haines (55:37)

or the other that we've all played into this and we're all going to have to be part of the solution.

Lian (55:39)

Hmm.

Yes, yeah. this has been an absolute delight again. Thank you, Arthur. And again, it's just flown by. But where can listeners find out more about you and the wonderful work you do?

Arthur Haines (56:00)

I'm again, I'm easy to find. I'm at Arthur Haines .com And of course, I'm at the same on social media if you want to find me or you can follow our community We're on Instagram and Facebook at Wilder Waters Yeah, and you know, this would be the first year that I start trying to advertise, you know weekend long events that are specifically for men to try to work through some of these biases that I see working their way into men's studies and say, look, these are things that define men and they have defined men through time and they define not just men who are being good at men, but they can define good men, the types of men that would make their partners fulfilled and happy and do good work for the land around them.

Lian (56:55)

No, no, no.

Arthur Haines (57:01)

And so that's going to be the goal this summer is starting to actually begin with these weekend long events.

Lian (57:10)

wonderful, really such much needed work that you're doing. I really love the sound of that. Well thank you so much for the man you are and what you are doing. Really appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Arthur Haines (57:18)

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me back again.

Lian (57:25)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth…

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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