How to awaken in the paradox: Neo-Vedanta & progressive paths (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Hello my beautiful mythical old souls and a huge warm welcome back. What if awakening isn't having to choose between two paths, Neo-Vedanta on one hand and progressive paths on the other, actually could be a dance in the mystery that lies between them.

In this week's episode I'm joined once again by the delightful and certainly one of my favourite guests, Daniel M. Ingram.

Daniel is an author, teacher and retired emergency medicine physician who's devoted his life to transforming how we relate to spiritual, meditative, mystical and psychedelic experiences. Together we explore what awakening really means.  

weaving between the idea of you're already awake and the more structured progressive paths filled with stages, techniques and deepening insights.

We talk about the hidden challenges and powerful gifts in each approach and how the conversation itself feels both timeless and relevant.

I share how awakening came to me in a spontaneous life-changing way and how that shifted as I began guiding others.

Daniel brings his decades of experience with spiritual communities and practices and together we explore the subtle landscapes of growth, shadow and the essential practice of staying present to what's here now.

Throughout, we keep returning to the pool of perfectionism in spiritual life and why true growth is found in something far more grounded, human and real.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, I would love you to know that the door's now open to my upcoming Crucible for Women Beauty Potion. It's the alchemical antidote to the beauty wound. Awaken your mythic beauty. You can find out more and join me at bemythical.com slash beauty.

And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, kinship and support, come join our Academy of Soul, Unio. You can find out more by hopping on over tobemythical.com slash Unio.

And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (02:18)

Hello, Daniel. Welcome back for, I don't know, the full time? Something like that.and a really interesting conversation I think ahead as ever but it's a particularly juicy topic I think.

Daniel M Ingram (02:26)

be here.

Well, it's wonderful to be here. Thank you. I'm really excited to talk about these perennial problems and their modern manifestation. So I think today we're going to be talking about the models of you're already awake, of a neo vedanta kind of this is it. There's nothing to do. There's nowhere to go versus the progressive path of developmental states and stages and maps and progress and landmarks and particularly expected transformations or shifts or eliminations or augmentations of one's experience, emotions, behavior, speech, thoughts, et cetera. yeah, so just diving in, obviously this is an old topic, right? So this is a very old topic that I've gotten to see in my communities and friend circles in my own life and practice for the last few decades.

And there's pros and cons to both approaches, right? So starting off with the idea that this is it. This is clearly true. If realisation is not found here, where would it be found? There's no other obvious option. It must be something intrinsic that one recognizes. This is true enough. Depending on how one wants to phrase that, one can phrase that in like sort of Buddhist-y terms, which I tend to be prone to. is transient, impermanent, ungraspable, natural, causal, without a separate, unique, stable, permanent agent or watcher or doer or knower or controller or be-er in the sense of a stable identity. And everything is utterly just unfolding naturally, ungraspably now. And one can recognize that. so that is...

That is true and an essential practice instruction and in some ways the basis of all of these map, really the basis of all practice somehow has to be about now and recognizing something now. On the other hand, as most people have noticed, there is a predictable set of or semi predictable set of stages that people may go through on the path or cycle around in or.

The ups and downs, the highs and lows and weirds, the openings, the shifts, the recognitions, the sense of limitation, the sense of finding something else, of going deeper, of like, aha, wait, those kinds of cycles. And most people end up noticing this in their path too. And so I think it's going to be fun to have a conversation about the tensions, the opportunities, the problems with each, the pros and cons.and figuring out how some sort of skillful blending of these two approaches or perspectives to the path.

Lian (05:33)

Mm. Oh gosh, this is a, as I was hearing you talk, I was like, my goodness, this is such a great conversation to have actually. And what I was, what I was experiencing as I was hearing you talk is how, I'm not saying this conversation we're about to have has never happened before, it clearly has, but often when I've heard conversations of this type, they're being had from one side or the other about the kind of the cons of the other side and the pros of the side we're on, rather than being able to take a step back with a perspective of looking as clearly as we can at both the pros and cons, the shadows, the gifts, the truth of both. And so I feel like there's something wonderful in being able to have a conversation from that place where I can speak for myself, at least I don't really have anything on it. And my sense is you don't either. You're just wanting to find a way forward that is I guess ultimately something useful.

Daniel M Ingram (06:34)

find a way here from the other point of view.

Lian (06:37)

Now that's very meta review Daniel. So, gosh, where to start? I just wanted to share something that I had come across recently and it's almost like a little bit like you saying perhaps there is a blend of the two and what I saw recently

Daniel M Ingram (06:39)

Right

Thanks.

Lian (07:05)

felt like a little bit like that, but perhaps not the... It felt like it too had shadows in a way that I don't think was perhaps being seen. like none of this, as you know, is about the particular people, teachers, paths, you know, like as in I could name the person I heard describing this, but it's not really about him. But there was… a kind of like Neo-Vedanta teacher talking, who very much is of that kind of you're already awake approach. And yet he was describing his students reaching what would be described in a more kind of traditional steps and stages approach as being, they've reached this stage using those terms of that approach, albeit not within that approach. And I was like, There feels like something not quite working with that either, even though there's some truth there too, that also felt kind of off in an interesting way. So I'll just share that at the outset, just because it came to mind as you were talking. And I think that too almost like needs to be part of the conversation because I guess our minds automatically might go, okay, well, what if we do just take both and put them together? And that asks something else of us too.

Daniel M Ingram (08:31)

Yeah, so again, obviously those who have watched recent discussions on related channels that talk about the stuff will have noticed that there are people who also have been struggling with this. are ideals about the models and the progressive models and the transformations and the changes and the differences that might be expected with those and then comparing those to their own experience that might still have some profound flavour of this is it, just this moment, some sort of awakening. or letting go of attachments or whatever it is that then, but yet didn't produce all of the exact maybe behavioral, emotional, whatever transformations that might be expected based on certain traditions, models that they happen to be coming up in. I think the perennial tensions, I think actually where most people end up themselves is actually oscillating between these. I think it's a very natural progression.

Lian (09:27)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (09:29)

Most traditions include both, even if they say they just include one. As you mentioned, this tension, right? So like, for example, within Zen, where you have like Dogen, who has this concept of like practice enlightenment. Practice is enlightenment, delightment is practice. And it points very immediately to this. And yet, as any Zen teacher will tell you, they can tell when their students are making progress.

They can feel it, they can sense that they were one way, now they're another way. They came to them without this understanding, now they get an understanding. And it's impossible to miss that, right? As anybody who's been on the path knows. so then the problem is the logical rational mind has like, well, both can't be true. Except in this case, both are.

Lian (09:52)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (10:16)

clearly sort of true from a certain point of view. And to me then it's really a question of sort of like skillful means. Like say you have traditions like Sutra Mahamudra and Dzogchen or Nivedanta for example, or some of the non-aligned teachers that end up kind of sounding like that, the sort of Adi Ashanti's and et cetera of the world, that a lot of people get tremendous benefit. They've been pushing so hard towards some goal and they just know settle in, be here now, very Ram Dassian.

Lian (10:32)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (10:45)

very immediate, just recognize what's happening now. And that's an important bit of messaging and teaching for them in that stage and that phase. They find that and they're like, wow, that really works for them. And then you have other people who may have found that initially, and yet somehow it's not doing something. They're not, it doesn't feel satisfying to them or the dissatisfaction isn't something they can embrace fully or however you want to think about it. And then they get into a progressive thing where they learn some mental skills and they learn some

control of attention and they learned some structure and some technique and they build up some capacity for this stuff. And all of a sudden, maybe this stuff made a lot more sense to them, whereas it didn't make, that was actually sort of how I found this path. you know, I heard these sort of this is it, whatever things, you know, it, okay, interesting, but it didn't click much. And then I learned a bunch of technique. And then finally the non-dual people started to make a lot more sense. So.

Lian (11:26)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (11:39)

I think that that oscillation of people and their practice and the freedom to do that and the possibility of doing that of I think is important for most people.

Lian (11:50)

Yes, that really makes sense. was just considering I had perhaps the opposite way round to you described, although every time I go to say it, I'm like, yes, but there's also this, it's not, there's something very interesting about having that perspective of both approaches and recognising how when we think we're in one place. Simultaneously, there's something of the other happening too. for me, there was a, I did get that very kind of spontaneous seeming immediate shift from a more kind of Neo Verdanta approach that I described at the time as truly life changing. And it was, it was. And because of my own experience, I did for a period truly believe like, that is all you need to do. And then it was wasn't until I began more and more kind of guiding others, starting to realize, it doesn't always work that way. Maybe there are some things to do in order to have the thing that happened seemingly, seemingly spontaneously for me. And so I kind of got called into more, I guess, sort of formal approaches as a means to, of guiding others. But then of course, you then start to realize, oh, there's actually more for me here too. Interesting.

Daniel M Ingram (13:23)

Nice. I find the same thing. I, you know, obviously I've written this book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, that in some ways very much is about technique, is about progress, is about states and stages and intensive practice and really developing, you know, positive mental faculties and capacities for clear perception as well as basic ethical training and all of that stuff. So, and yet that then obviously I get a tremendous number of say sort of moderately  testosterone hyped up, gonzo generally mid-20s tech achievement oriented type A, sometimes a touch neuro-atypical people coming to me pushing extremely hard for some future that is not this moment. And then I use phrases like stumbling towards this moment as fast as you can go, eh? Right? So like, which is I think appropriately jarring and yet all of the technique based practices are based on assuming that the truths to be recognized are truths that are now here.

Lian (14:09)

Hehehehehe

Daniel M Ingram (14:23)

straightforwardly true and just need to be appreciated somehow. Like, you know, again, impermanence, luminosity, transience, naturalness, whatever, you know, things noticing themselves where they are, as they are, exactly as they are, something incredibly duh about this moment. And yet, so, and on the other hand, I get plenty of people who come to me and they say, I've been practicing for years and years and years, and I just sit there.

Lian (14:25)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (14:52)

trying to recognize this is it and nothing happens. And then you give them some, again, a little bit of technique or a little bit of increased tweaks of how to look with more precision or speed or inclusion or looking back this way at the meta qualities. They weren't recognizing the sense of effort or expectation or anticipation. And suddenly, they, know, really cool things happen for them. like Achan Chai used to talk about, know, people, you know, I...People accuse me of being hypocritical because I tell some people go to the left and some people go to the right. But to me, it's like there's a kind of path of the middle way. And some people are going too far this way. I say go that way and going too far that way. I say go this way. So again, you find these metaphors throughout the traditions.

Lian (15:32)

Mmm.

This is a question which I'm appreciating as I'm about to ask it. I think you're going to find it a little bit challenging to answer because I think you're going to want to go, well, I don't have the data on this, but I'm still going to ask you because I'd love you to share whatever you have seen. Do you have any sense as to what's at play for people who do find the kind of you're already awake approach kind of

Daniel M Ingram (15:50)

Ha ha ha!

Lian (16:07)

in my case, where I sort of found it's like incredibly like, boom, how could it have been that simple? And then people who actually the much more kind of step by step approach is beneficial. Have you seen what might be at play that has a person be one way or another appreciating this also change for someone over time, but kind of at least at the outset or in kind of groupings of what they tend to find helpful, what makes people one way or the other?

Daniel M Ingram (16:38)

I think it's a really great question. I actually, for this, really like, so there's a guy, Chogam Trungpa, who was obviously something of a disaster, but also kind of brilliant. And he has a chapter of the five Buddha families in a book called Journey Without Goal. And actually, I like this framework a lot. So I'm just going to bring this one.

Lian (16:59)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (17:01)

You have people who, and this is one of these personality typing systems, of which there are a bunch of different ones, and this just happens to be one of them, and I think they all do good things, where you have each of the of basic personality styles has its opportunities and its challenges. So for example, if your mind is very spacious, like what they call a Buddha family mind, then the opportunity is that spacious equanimity that anything can move through, and you're just kind of like, Okay, right. And then pointing that out to someone who that's their strength might work really, really well for them because that's their natural strength. On the other hand, the shadow side of the kind of open spacious mind is a kind of dullness or indifference or a sort of a, And so sometimes what they need, and you can kind of figure this out. Like you've asked them, what's your basic attention like during the day? What do you tend to gravitate to?

Lian (17:40)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (18:00)

what's, what do you, how do you find your mind relating to different types of techniques? You can kind of figure out which type people are, or for example, like karma people. like karma people are like, I need a rule and I need a path and an algorithm and I'm gonna stick to the protocol and I'm gonna get my mind very, very sharp and follow the instructions exactly with diligence, right? That kind of person, well, that's their strength. And if you play to it and it works out well for them, okay, great. But the shadow side of that is, is this sort of rigidity, this need to control the sense of something. And so can you recognize that they have that kind of that style, which comes with this set of pros and cons and figure out where they are in terms of utilizing their potential or skill set. Or like you have someone like me, kind of a, like particularly as I started out of my 20s and 30s, I was very much a Vajra type actually. So Vajra type could just cut things to pieces. Like I could very rapidly dissect naturally reality into little.

Lian (18:35)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (18:56)

sputtering fragments of incredibly rapid sensations of meaningless whatever, right? So that I had a very sharp cutting, extremely fast mind, right? But then like sort of like a razor or like very surgical, which sounds kind of like karma, but actually is sort of a different thing because it was just, yeah, it's kind of has sort of a different vibe to it. And.

Lian (19:06)

Mmm.

I can feel that.

Daniel M Ingram (19:22)

And yet, so then the shadow side of that can be missing like the open, expansive, like more of a Buddha quality, the free flowing, the positive, the appreciative, the divine love, or some of those kinds of things can be sort of like not as rapidly obvious to someone who started out with my basic mental tendencies. Or like rotness, or like here's another one, like overflowing abundance. These people are just like big and loving and open, whatever, but like.

Lian (19:42)

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (19:51)

maybe like the shadow side and the dark side of life or the more contracted states or more challenging things might be stressful for them. the person you would want to hold a big dinner party, it'd be great. But maybe going in and facing the dark, I'm just providing examples. So I end up using a hybrid of a number of different personality-ish natural tendency systems to figure out how to play to a person's strengths.

Lian (20:05)

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (20:20)

or to figure out how to, okay, if you have the strength, you probably also have this weakness and maybe there's some counterbalancing things that might help that, like more loving kindness practices if you're very rigid or more equanimity practices or generosity or kindness or something, or maybe some people may need some more sharpness and precision and focus and labeling or something.

Lian (20:28)

Mmm.

Mmm, I love that. Did you say all five? I felt like you said four. Maybe I miscounted.

Daniel M Ingram (20:46)

Yeah, there's a fifth one. Yeah, sorry. So Padma. Padma, as Trungpa explains it, and this is kind of filtered a little bit through, he was something of a lech. I think the way he described this kind of had this like, yeah, you and me, baby kind of vibe to it. So like, it has this.

Lian (20:58)

I've heard.

You

Seriously, it was

said to specific women.

Daniel M Ingram (21:12)

Right, I think so. So you have to kind of recognize that if you read this book, the way he describes Padma has probably got a little bit of shadow in it. So just be careful. But it's this kind of sense of private intimacy, like between two people. Like you could go out to the club and have a great time and eat a bunch of rich food, or you could sit down to like a quiet, private, candlelit dinner. And it has more of a sense of focused intimacy, immediacy.

Lian (21:20)

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (21:42)

with a sort of sensuality to it, an appreciation and aestheticness, but it's different from the overflowing big sort of like, yeah, like I think he describes Ratna as the one that kind of sounds like this is like an overflowing bathtub full of honey or something that you would sink into, whereas this is much more subtle and refined and private and personal and has an intimacy to it. So its strength is this kind of

Lian (21:50)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (22:12)

quiet, real appreciative aesthetic intimacy with life, with experience, with relationship. Anyway, and then it has its shadow sides where it might not be as comfortable with wilder, more expansive states or more sharp technical control and may also lack some of the spaciousness of Buddha. again, I kind of helped...

There's, can ask people like, what kind of practices are you drawn to? What has happened when you did those practices? What kind of teachings do you like? Why are you doing this? Right? What is it that you get what you're trying to get? And if you ask like two or three layers of questions below that, you can kind of type people and then it's, it's kind of weirdly predictable how their path has gone. And then if you know a little bit about their attachment style, then you get a lot more of it. And yeah.

Lian (22:51)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (23:10)

So then, and once you sort of have that sense of things, then I think it's easier to kind of work with people because it becomes much more real and living for them rather than the sort of top-down ideal of you should be this way and become this type of practitioner and adopt this type of technique. It's more about, okay, here's you as a workable person with a workable set of skill sets and options and probably some predictable shadow sides based on those. And then you can, know, when you get

Lian (23:24)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (23:40)

when you've kind of been seeing this longer and kind of people will tell you what's worked for them and then you can kind of see patterns in it and then you can sort of pattern match. this might be a really good way to go for you. And it becomes more custom tech because people, as you noticed, really could be really different.

Lian (23:51)

Mmm.

That makes so much sense. I love that. I will be going down that rabbit hole straight after this show, I can feel already. So you've, I think both of us actually, you've mentioned shadows quite a lot. think both of us have. And it's one of the things that...I certainly again from my own initial experience, this isn't necessarily characterizing kind of all more kind of neo non dual forms, but certainly my own experience was a real, I guess, lack of attention and awareness of shadow, both within the approach, but also within the individuals within it. And that was certainly something that over time I began to, I guess, have a particular interest in because I'd had the experiences I'd had without really looking there and then kind of almost retrospectively then started to realise like, this is a really important place to look. And I certainly have the sense that often it's lacking in more kind of neo-divin- vidanta types. And yet, as we...

As we've seen in, for example, the recent story that we were chatting about earlier, it can sometimes be missing also even within an approach that has these kind of known states and stages where I, looking at it from the outside, would have sort of felt like it would have been sort of like part and parcel of that approach, like that you may not use the word shadow, but it would kind of that stuff would get seen and cleaned up along the way.

So this is a very imprecise question. If one would be generous enough to call it even a question. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of that because I think there is something vital within this conversation when it comes to, know, so what do we do about shadow?

Daniel M Ingram (26:01)

Yeah. So in the particular case, we've been sort of tiptoeing around. I think one of the dangers for lot of the traditions is becoming narrow and based on the sort of personality style of a particular teacher. Right. So then if you have a particular teacher who has a certain personality style, like again, I'm, you know, I've been pretty strong on Vajra stuff. I'm good at just dissecting reality. and I had a sort of an intuitive capacity to do that. And then I talk about that a lot in my book, right? That's kind of one sort of style or flavour, but it's limiting. so it's nearly impossible for any of us to have all of the styles and have a fluency with all of the styles and the possibilities and the approaches, right? So you have some people who really just are very loving, for example.

You can feel it, but they may lack a of a technical analytical side. And you have people who are very dry and technical and analytical, but they may not be as loving. It's sort of a cliche. You have people who are very scholastic and intellectual. You have people who are very intuitive. You have people who are very, very extroverted. And they're big, and they attract lots of followers. And then you have some really great practitioners who are super deeply realised, but they just like to stay in a cave somewhere. They're not really extroverted.

And it's very tough for any of us who go out and talk about these things to have all of those. So I think one of the first things is recognizing that in nearly any healthy tradition, you're going to need a network of teachers, right? So it's not like there aren't single teachers that might not happen to be particularly good for you. Great, you found your teacher that works for you wonderful. But then the notion that they will necessarily have what is needed to counterbalance or

Lian (27:38)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (27:51)

fill in or round out the tendencies of anybody else, that is almost certainly never true, that they will have everything that everybody needs. And so I think that's kind of the first thing I think about when I do that. And I refer people out all the time to other people's stuff, to other teachers, to other perspectives. Like, yeah, because I recognize there's no way I can do it all. And I don't know any, I've never met another teacher who could. I've met teachers who had a lot of capacity and a lot of breadth and depth, but I don't.

Lian (28:00)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (28:20)

You know, so far, at least I haven't felt like I've recognized one. And so I think the problem then, was a lot of communities really do say this is must be the one true way that sort of fixation around an orthodoxy and the sort of fervent zealousness, which again, I appreciate because they may have had it work so incredibly well for them. As you mentioned, I get that I've been there too. You know, this, this is the incredible book. These, these books right there, like that's to the answer. Everybody should just learn those and do that. I've been there.

Lian (28:34)

Hmm.

my gosh.

Daniel M Ingram (28:49)

you know,realistically, we're more complicated than that as humans, I think, and have more diverse needs and resonances. And that changes with time too. So the other thing is it changes with time. Like early on, you know, I was really this way and now I do a lot of this other thing.

Lian (28:56)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Hmm, I feel like you've what you've shared there I think is really relevant context, but I don't I mean again My aunt my question wasn't particularly precise anyway, but I don't feel like you fulfilled the thing I wanted you to speak to so no, it's it's you know, it was certainly was me so I'll ask it another way and

Daniel M Ingram (29:24)

sorry. my fault. Please, please go ahead.

Lian (29:33)

So perhaps talking directly to an example, how one might reach what is kind of considered a certain stage within a tradition and yet still have what might be described as shadows. Say for example, particular emotional responses or urges that they weren't aware of, therefore were in shadow.

But I guess a question is, given you would imagine within that path, that stuff would have been kind of dealt with and worked through on the way, you know, as part and parcel of the, and again, this is me saying, I'm quite naturally quite Pollyanna, so some of this is like, wouldn't you have thought this would have been taken care of? So, one hand, it could be seen that that would be taken care of within the tradition.

and yet it doesn't seem to always be the case. On the other hand, if we're looking at, say for example, a Neo-Vedanta approach, it's almost like it's not even needed to be looked at because again, if one wakes up, it's all just gone anyway. But of course that often isn't happening and so therefore in the meantime, there's all this stuff being left unattended. So. I'll try and make this a better question than I did last time. I guess what's going, what do you see is going on within the kind of more traditional approaches? Like I saw your expression when I was like, isn't that being taken care of as one goes through the stages and your face was a bit like, really Leona? So let's start there.

Daniel M Ingram (31:18)

I get it though. I've also assumed that these techniques... I have also many times been in a mindset where it's like, yeah, if people just did this, that would take care of it all. That's all you need. Sure. It's a compelling feeling and could strike us all with that great sense of profoundly noetic, deep knowing that of course, this is sufficient. If you just do enough loving kindness practice, if you just do enough...

whatever, open up enough energy chakras, if you just do, whatever it is, do enough trauma healing, will do enough attachment work, will, you know, wake up enough, will. My first assumption is that there is always shadow. Like this I get from Taoism, light and dark contain one another and reveal one another. So my first working assumption is that there is always shadow, that none of us, while we are alive, will be free from such a thing.

Lian (32:04)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (32:15)

We will all have our down, our missing aspects, our blind sides. And I personally am going to put it out there as I firmly believe, which is obviously a dangerous thing to say in any context, that the practice assumption of assuming that we are going to have a shadow side in things that we miss, in a subconscious and an unconscious from a Freudian point of view or whatever it is, we should always assume that that is true.

Lian (32:44)

Hmm

Daniel M Ingram (32:46)

Even if it is not true, if it's not true, we haven't really done any harm, right? Because if you truly have no shadow sides and you just adopt the point of view that you might have a shadow side, have you really hurt yourself? You have no shadow sides. Okay, good for you. Yay. But for the rest of us, realistic mortals, I mean, for the rest of us, I think it is good to assume that whatever you have attained or realised, there is going to be the possibility that you are missing something.

Lian (32:52)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Daniel M Ingram (33:14)

as we are limited creatures with limited perspectives. If we take the lives of various saints or gurus or whatever, and you look at them carefully, if you look at the life of the Buddha, for example, is one of the ones I'm most familiar with, or Christ, or pick your favorite spiritual superhero, they all learned, they all grew, they all evolved, they were all constantly shifting and morphing even after whatever revelation.

Lian (33:15)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (33:44)

transformation they had. And there is this sense of maturation that occurs, and I don't see it having any obvious endpoints to it. So I don't particularly, you know, currently hold to any models that I will attain to some sort of level of perfection in my lifetime. And even if you look at plenty of people who are considered fully awake, you know, by the most realised people, if you actually look at their day-to-day lives and got to know them, you would go,

And some of the Zen teachings, like if you really want to get to know a Zen master, you know, talk to their spouse.

Lian (34:13)

Mmm.

Yeah. What you're saying there is one of those things that sounds so, I guess, common sense and sensible, and yet in a funny way, I think isn't something that perhaps is acknowledged that often.

Daniel M Ingram (34:22)

There's wisdom in that.

Lian (34:44)

I guess by its very nature, it's not very flattering to think someone's kind of, know, I'm at a certain stage and yet there's all of this stuff that, you know, we talked to actually just before we started recording about this kind of, you know, this idea of perfection and we can get very, that's very alluring.

And even when we think we're seeing the ways that we are ignoring these aspects of ourselves that don't perhaps match with the stage or don't really weren't even considered at the point they were written, let's say. I think there is just by its very nature, this is a hall of mirrors and not easy to make our way through. But I think I mean, I know I don't really want to go down this particular rabbit hole. I don't think it's necessary.

in this episode. But for example, the story that we keep sort of referring back to, which isn't directly relevant, but it's just because it's part of what we were chatting about earlier, where it can be this idea that, in order to have reached this particular state, let's say our heart, it should look like this and come with these qualities, but it absolutely shouldn't have these qualities, these feelings. And I think The challenge is most people aren't going to be the one that's kind of like the emperor's got no clothes. And so as soon as someone like you is saying, well, you know, everything you've just said, it kind of there's an inconvenience to that, if that makes sense. If one is looking for perfectionism. So again, I haven't I haven't actually asked you a very good question here, but I've just I guess would love to hear your sense on why perhaps.

Daniel M Ingram (36:21)

Mm-hmm.

Lian (36:31)

an approach that does have these kind of like semi-agreed on distinct stages why we perhaps can still get tangled up in this idea of I'm here when someone else may feel differently or find ourselves kind of eating humble pie.

Daniel M Ingram (36:49)

Well, actually, as you were speaking, I thought of the counterpoint. And the counterpoint is that, as you almost certainly have found in your own life, and I certainly found in my own life, chasing perfection and the sense of deep faith and the profound appreciation of a tradition for total transformation in its capacities can galvanize a staggering amount of very useful energy.

So on the other hand, there is a tremendous power in blind, what I would now call naive, but also incredibly powerful faith that motivates deep openings, you know, that gets one through the challenging times that inspires great practice or the seeking of, you know, deep transformative teachings. And so I also, like on the same, on the other hand, don't want to cut off that sense of wellspring of energy of all of our desires for perfection.

Lian (37:16)

Yes.

Hmm.

I love that.

Daniel M Ingram (37:45)

or the ability to realistically look at those as an experience, to be able to look at the desire for perfection or for a perfect path or a perfect teacher or a perfect outcome. So that's the first thing I thought. And then the second thing I thought is the inevitable shadow sides of the maps and models, which I talk a lot about in my book and on various podcasts.

Lian (37:59)

Mm, great point.

Daniel M Ingram (38:09)

And so there is this other side where when you grow up in a perfection based tradition where you should perfect your relationship to say anger or desire or fear or not have those at all, for example, or never say a wrong word, whatever that means, or never have a quote unquote bad thought or any thought at all. Some of these interesting models we have. I think that. 

Those obviously create staggering amounts of shadow side and suffering and projection and transference and counter transference in totally negative, awful ways. And as my teacher, Bill Hamilton warned a lot, is one of his favorite soap boxes having been crashing around in a very idealistic spiritual scenes for a number of decades before I met him. He said, yeah, like these ideals can create staggering shadow sides and exploitation and abuse and denial. and cut us off from our own humanity. One of my very human teachers, Christopher Titmuss, talks a lot about this. Just wrote a very interesting piece about Andrew Cohen that he sent out, who was this teacher who really did help some people and really screwed some people up badly and seemed to have some sort of curious mix of wisdom and really messed up shadow personality stuff that never seemed to be addressed during his lifetime, despite hanging out with some really good teachers and profound techniques and a deep exposure to many. transformative technologies. And in the same way that Chogyam Trungpa is a cautionary tale, right? When we fail to recognize the humanity, when we get put up on a pedestal, that can be incredibly toxic for us as teachers, as practitioners, or put ourselves on a pedestal. Yeah, all of that, the problems that get created fill the Dharma and spiritual world scandal sheets seemingly weekly. I get my ears burned with this stuff.

Lian (39:59)

Mmm.

Hmm. I love the point you made there at the beginning that there is, yeah, there's real kind of energy and beauty in, you know, is kind of why everyone even sets foot on the path and perhaps wouldn't if the reality was, probably shouldn't you just randomly use the word reality in a conversation like this, but yeah, if the reality of these things was seen earlier. And then how about on the other side, where

Daniel M Ingram (40:13)

yeah.

Lian (40:34)

in a more kind of neo-Vedanta path, it often seems to me to be the case that this notion of having shadow personally as a practitioner on that path just doesn't appear to be spoken about often. And again, I'm not saying that's always the case and I have seen, I guess more recently times where that has been spoken about. So I may be misrepresenting it slightly, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Daniel M Ingram (41:02)

Well, do you have like a specific example because I can think of a bunch like what's coming to mind? What do you see from that notion that this this technique will give you no shadow? What are some examples of that that you've seen over the years?

Lian (41:18)

So it's not so much that the approach won't, it's that. there is almost like, let's put a different way, almost like there just is no such thing as shadow. Because if all of this is an illusion, if all of this is, let's say, thought created, how can there be such a thing as shadow? That's obviously, I've said that in a very reductive way, but certainly in some of the circles I was in kind of at the outset, things like that could actually be directly said.It's like, why would you go kind of looking and delving into aspects of your, I don't know, past or character when all of it's illusion anyway, and you can just wake up to that.

Does that make sense?

Daniel M Ingram (42:10)

Well, so I think the, yeah, that totally makes sense. Yes, I think there's a number of things.

Lian (42:14)

I love the way

your expressions always show exactly what's going on in your mind. Anyone that's listening to this on the podcast won't know that as I'm talking I'll kind of read what you're thinking and then kind of adjust as I'm going. No, it's a good thing.

Daniel M Ingram (42:19)

Right? Yeah, I don't.

You

Sorry, I hope that's a good thing and not an interfering thing. So the first thing is the notion that this is illusion. So not all of the non-dual Vedanta strains or whatever necessarily think this is all illusion or that this is all thought created, right? This might be the unfolding dance of the divine. This might be the natural unfolding of the universe. This might be the dream of the great god Vishnu or Brahma or whatever the...

Lian (42:45)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (42:57)

There's a lot of variance within Vedanta and some of the non-dual traditions about what ultimately sort of this is. That's sort of the first thing. and each of those saying this is all illusion has its set of pros and cons, right? Not taking it too seriously, treating it like a dream world or a phantom world or a twilight. You know, there's a lot of interesting language that you can find around these sorts of traditions. That has its own set of pros and cons, like some people really do.

Lian (43:04)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (43:25)

benefit from taking this a little less seriously. And some people tell this is all illusion, and they do really bad stuff and start making really apparently poor decisions. functionally, depending on how much you care about things like function and ordinary life outcomes, and they'd say, oh, you're just caught in the illusion then if you actually care about ordinary life outcomes. But in the end, most people will probably care about ordinary life outcomes. so then. you that's one thing, but if you think this is all the dance of the divine or it's all perfection, whatever happens is perfect. There is pros and cons to that too. And actually I've had some shifts and transformations where the sense of whatever is happening is the best possible thing that could be happening. That can be weirdly healing and also can have a really kind of messed up aspect to it. The other thing is, is any psychologist will tell you like there are reasons to look at the shadow, right?

Lian (44:11)

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (44:20)

as anybody who's ever been a psychotherapist to a meditation teacher, for example, because some non-trivial portion of them end up in therapy if they do this long enough. They will all tell you, examining our weird patterns that we cannot see, having an external perspective on those, having someone who can mirror back to you what you're actually saying.

Just sometimes even like journaling down your ideas about yourself and looking at them can make you go, wait, with, I thought that about, okay, wait, that doesn't make any sense. So, or the interactions that we can have in community where community, the group around us can go, Daniel, have you noticed this thing you do where you, yeah, like thank you community for this kind of feedback, right? So the whole, from a certain point of view, also that's just the system communicating with itself. That is just the non-dual thing happening also.

Lian (44:51)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Daniel M Ingram (45:12)

Right? So taking non-duality outside of ourselves into this much more broad, big interactive thing of an integrated system that is feeding back and talking to itself, communicating with itself. And some of that communication might involve the notion, hey, maybe you should look at this thing that maybe is sort of shadowy. Right? So from a broader non-dual point of view, not kind of a solipsistic, individualistic, perfectionistic non-dual point of view, but aid.

Lian (45:30)

you

Hehehehehe

Daniel M Ingram (45:40)

a non-dual point of view that embraces the whole interactive system, maybe those communicative patterns that are unfolding about shadow here now, say in this podcast or whatever, also just the divine.

Lian (45:56)

doing its thing. Well, we are coming up on time. What? I've loved it. I'm like, OK, well, how do we bring this to somewhat? I mean, it's like a conversation that we could probably continue for hours, if not years. But what do you feel would be? Exactly, we're just jumping in.

Daniel M Ingram (45:57)

doing its thing. I unfortunately have a meeting, but this has been delightful.

People have continued this conversation for a few thousand years actually already at least.

Lian (46:25)

What would you feel would be a useful place to close this?

Daniel M Ingram (46:31)

just an appreciation that if you're watching this, you're engaging with these topics and you're thinking and listening and growing and practicing and figuring this out for yourself. And hopefully you keep your wits about you and, and are able to look honestly at your own heart, mind, body, life, the way your life is going and your interactions with the community and, continue to evolve and grow and, and, explore this amazing journey of the path or this moment.

Lian (46:59)

lovely. Thank you so much Daniel, where can people find out about you and your vast work that you do in many different forms?

Daniel M Ingram (47:10)

You could go to integrateddaniel.info is one place you could go to or yeah, that's a good place to start.

Lian (47:20)

Fabulous, thank you so much. I really appreciate you and everything you do.

Daniel M Ingram (47:25)

Cool. It's been delightful.

Lian (47:28)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth…

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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