How to navigate your soul's path with astrology and psychology - Jessica DiRuzza (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

It can seem quite a contentious notion of astrology having any place in psychology, even forms of psychology that are otherwise deep and soulful and holistic. And yet there absolutely can be this line that is drawn when it comes to believing in astrology beyond any sort of like, at least it talks about archetypes that we can just

relate to from that place. The idea that astrology could have anything beyond that, anything that is beyond the known, takes us into more magical spiritual realms, that absolutely is a line that many people who are either practicing psychology of some description or receiving it, that's a line that many won't cross.

And I would include myself in that until I had a realization that it was time for me to cross that line. In this episode with my wonderful guest, Jessica DiRuzza, we go deep into this union of psychology and astrology. And my hope is by the end you'll see they absolutely do belong together. Let's dive in.

Lian (01:23)

Hello, Jessica. Welcome back to the show. my goodness. I am delighted to have you back and to now dive into the original topic we planned to talk about. So I think by the time listeners listen to this one,

Jessica (01:26)

Yay! Hi, Lian! I'm so happy to be here!

Lian (01:46)

what turned out to be our first episode will be out, which turned out to be on quite a different topic, completely spontaneous about, I guess what I've really begun more and more to see is like that sort of spiritual journey of being autistic in short, and or the parent of autistic children. And there were certainly places where we touched in on this topic, which is this kind of...

Jessica (02:00)

Hmm.

Lian (02:11)

interweaving of astrology and psychology, but I certainly wanted to make sure we did do the episode that first brought us together. So that's the intention for this one. And I personally would suggest that someone does listen to both because the other episode we did is so rich. And I'll just share with you the response I've already had on it before it's even been released. But

Right now we're going to dive into all things astrology and psychology, but starting with your story that brought you to this kind of union that I can see happening within you. I can see it's really about this kind of academic understanding as much as you sure have that as well, but I feel like this is a real embodied marriage of the two that you are an expression of. So how did that happen?

Jessica (03:06)

my gosh, I'm so honored that you see that in me because that is probably my highest goal in this lifetime, spiritually to embody that marriage and in the work that I do. So I would love to share with you now. Yeah, how that all happened. I think that most simply put, it was a soul calling that I came into this world with ever

I was a little girl, my first memories were looking up at the sky. I lived in the country and so I really could see all of the stars. And before I knew really what they were and way before I knew what astrology was, the sky spoke to me and it provided me a lot of solace and it provided me guidance and connection in a world that didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I felt

human insanity very present everywhere that I looked and a lot of things just weren't making sense but the sky always made sense the universe made sense the stars made sense and I could hear the sky speak and really that's what astrology is it's the language of the sky psychology is the language of psyche or soul and like any language we first need to learn how to listen before we can speak

And so I think that was my initial initiation into being able to hear astrology or hear the sky. But it wasn't until I was 20 years old that I discovered astrology or astrology discovered me, however that awakening works. And at the time I had, I was two years into regularly taking psychedelics and I had made what felt

a pilgrimage out into the desert to the Burning Man Festival that happens here in the United States in Black Rock City in Nevada. About 60 ,000 people go out there for a week, build a city, have these experiences that are death and rebirth rites of passage. You go in one person, you come out someone completely different. And at this festival,

was doing psychedelics and the camp of about 40 people that I was in had a professional astrologer in it. And about the third day end of the festival, I went and I sat down and this person turned to me and said, would you like a reading? And of course I said, absolutely, bring it on. And it was just a five minute reading. And in that moment, it felt like I'd been waiting my entire life.

for just that exact moment to happen. Like I had completely arrived on my Dharmic soul path and it was just like, and I was like, and here it is. I'm awake, I'm awake, I'm awake. Yep, yep, remember, I remember. I remember why I'm here. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I thought this was coming, but I wasn't a hundred percent sure, but I was pretty sure, but good thing I'm not crazy. And.

Lian (06:01)

Hmm.

I think that quite honestly could make an episode in itself that just the way that sometimes it seems like you have those absolute milestone moments like you've described and other times it's sort of subtler or takes place over a longer period.

But I just, the way you've just described that, I've had chills and this just sense of like, my goodness, yes, those moments where suddenly it's like something, there was a deeper like dropping into like, that's why I came here. And it's unmistakable, isn't it? Just, yeah.

Jessica (07:03)

Hmm.

Yeah, I mean, there's some understanding that in our life between lives, there are these moments that are orchestrated for us that we know are going to happen before we incarnate that are set up. And when they happen and we are able to be conscious of it when it's happening, the reason why it's like, my God, I've been waiting for this or deja vu or whatever that is, is because we knew it was planned. We knew it was coming and we got the privilege of actually having the experience inside of space time.

through the realm of forgetting of that greatest pleasure of waking up and going, yeah, wait, no. And within that, it is a spiritual awakening because if you sit with the implications of the possibility of that happening, which for me is what brought me into the astrology, is it's so much for me about a cosmology. It's about a way of understanding the human being's relationship with the universe. And so,

Lian (08:02)

Mmm.

Jessica (08:04)

I knew in that moment that I had to drop my entire life and put all of myself in to astrology, which was a radical decision at the time because I was in undergraduate school for sociology in Colorado. I was married to a one -legged pirate and, you know, living a crazy, unhinged life. And I dropped out of school. I got a divorce.

I sold all my belongings and I moved out to San Francisco, California, where I ended up studying archetypal astrology and depth psychology with my teacher, Richard Tarnas and Stan Grof, who come from the lineage of Carl Jung, James Hillman, and so on. And so, but just to kind of round up that piece right there.

After that experience at Burning Man, a few weeks later there was an opportunity for me to go visit San Francisco right before I moved out there and in that trip I did a high dose LSD session, saturated dose. So now they call that a heroic dose, let's just call it leaving space -time dosage and in that experience, yeah please.

Lian (09:22)

Can I ask you just, as I said to you before we started recording, because we had a chat like, is it going be okay for me to mention psychodelics on this show? And I'm like, it's completely okay. In fact, there might well be a whole show in us about that. But I just want to ask you briefly, if it's possible to do so, to share

Did you have a sense of what was calling you to work with LSD in that way? Like what was going on for you that had that be the thing to do?

Jessica (09:58)

Well, I started smoking marijuana when I was 14, but I didn't do other psychedelics until I was 18, LSD, mushrooms, and MDMA. And in those experiences, which were regular doses or lower doses, every time within the experience, I wanted more. I was very pleased with what I was being shown, but I felt that there was more that I could see. And so I would ask the medicine and the universe,

to take me further. And I think at what happened was there was a convergence in that moment in San Francisco where, and there's light and shadow to this, the lineage that I come from with my teachers, specifically Stan Groff, is known for high dose LSD sessions. So the person that I had met in the Burning Man camp was like a teacher assistant to Rick and Stan. And so,

Lian (10:29)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Jessica (10:56)

they very much were pro do these heroic doses. So when I went out to San Francisco, it was a normal part of that specific culture to do that dose of LSD. I had only one other time before that done something somewhat comparable, but I don't think I had ever left space time until that moment. So it is part of, and this is kind of what's unique about my astrological journey

Lian (11:08)

Hmm.

Hmm

Jessica (11:25)

There's never been a separation between astrology, psychology, and psychedelics. They've kind of been like my holy trinity and I've never known them separate from one.

Lian (11:30)

Hmmmm

So interesting, really interesting. I'm being called back to, and this certainly showed up a little bit in our previous episode where there's so many parallels between you and I, but it's like the journey we've taken to them has been really different in all kinds of ways. So very briefly, as I think I mentioned last time, I was raised in a...

an environment where it was like kind of saturated with magic, tarot, astrology, magic mushrooms, all the things were just normal. And I had a period where I was so, so into and passionate about and just living and breathing and thinking astrology. And then

It was like I completely rebelled against all of that and tried to fit myself as much as possible into a mainstream world that didn't allow a space for that. So I had to kind of like journey through a long period actually of my life without any of those things that again, I now see it like absolutely like what I came here for to then kind of journey back to like sort of rediscover these strands that

belong in my life. And when I hear stories like you, there is a certain bit of envy in me. It's like, my goodness, if only I could have like kept those precious things, not had to let them go and rediscover them. But of course our journey is our journey and it's all meant to be the way it is. But I find it so interesting listening to yours and thinking, is we've come to similar understanding, similar work, but just in

completely different way. But there's something beautiful about that too, isn't there? Like there is just not one path, even for the same things.

Jessica (13:25)

Yeah, I mean, I think this speaks so clearly to the individuation process is I believe so deeply that we start where we start for a highly intelligent reason that is for our highest good. And then from there, the unique path that we take is also highly designed for exactly what our soul is needing to go through, I think to ultimately come to a place

Lian (13:30)

Hmm.

Jessica (13:54)

I hope, of authenticity. And so there seems like my best imagination of your experience is that you started in this immersive magical world and then you had to leave it, like reverse Harry Potter style. And then the choice of coming back into it actually makes it so much more

genuine and real for you because you chose to come back to it. But I imagine you came to you came back into it in a way that brought difference and differentiation from the way in which that immersive experience began. Because there's probably things in that that needed to be changed for you. Certain things, my best sense is to come into right relation with it instead of something that was just

Lian (14:39)

Hmm.

Jessica (14:50)

the water you swam in. It's like you need to have the choice around it. think that's very

Lian (14:56)

Yes, yeah, very well seen and expressed. So back to your story. There's so many interesting bits, I'm like, can we just go here? I'll, I'll frame a little bit. Not much.

Jessica (15:00)

Yeah, okay.

You

Yeah, so I continued on this path from 20 to 23 where I was just doing weekly psychedelic experiences and all I did was study astrology 24 -7. There wasn't anything else that I did. It was my ultimate two special interests. But within that experience, and I'm grateful to my teacher Richard Tarnas for this was,

he would emphasise over and over again that if you're going to do this work professionally in a counseling astrological manner, then you need to get trained therapeutically because ultimately anybody who's giving professional astrology readings, which I started to do immediately, is holding therapeutic space. And so there's an ethical dimension to it, which is really important. And I took that as most autistic people do, very seriously.

Right? Like very literally, like, okay, then I will pursue this. Thank you. Good to know. And so I did. And what happened was the readings I were giving were going so far into the deep end of people's lives and trauma and childhood experiences that though I had a astrological symbolic understanding of it, I wasn't always entirely sure.

how this person got to where they were at and what I could do to support them in the actual real lived human experiences of their suffering and pain. And it was a very early reading I gave where the person was actively suicidal and I hadn't been trained for this and I did not know what to do. And so to the best of my ability, I just sat with the person in it and then as soon as done, I was like to be the best astrologer that I can be

I have to go study psychology. And that's what I did. I went and I pursued a master's degree in counseling psychology with an emphasis in depth psychology because archetypal astrology, the form of astrology I practice comes out of the depth psychological tradition. So it was a natural fit. And I went and I did that with zero intention of being a psychotherapist. But within the experience, like you started this whole episode is it is actually, they are one thing,

that only in the last hundred years got separated. So the separation of astrology and psychology is very recent and I think it mirrors your own personal journey is sometimes there has to be a separation of two things so that when they come back together it's almost at a higher level of union of maturation and that's what's happening now with psychology and astrology. They need each other desperately.

Lian (17:42)

Mmm.

Jessica (18:05)

And so my life's work is to bring them together for anybody who wants to join the parade.

Lian (18:13)

I feel like cheering at this point. So something you said there about the way that psychology and astrology always had belonged, belonged together and it's very recent sort of separation and also sort of dismissal to a large extent of astrology. And it caught mind I was recording

Jessica (18:16)

Aww.

Lian (18:41)

a very magical man amongst many things he does is palmistry. But he's also, you know, his understanding, sort of depth and breadth of knowledge kind of, you know, going to all the other things as often, you know, those of us called to this path, it takes all these different sort of like side routes. Anyway, his way of describing why palmistry has, has truth, echoed what kind of what you were saying there. And he was he puts it this way, it's like for most of human history there

wasn't really, you know, like stuff on television to for us to sit and watch. So we studied the sky, we studied the land, people around us, we studied our own bodies. That's where we had so much time studying these things to discover truth in them.

Jessica (19:33)

Mmm, I love that.

Lian (19:34)

And we forget that, we? We think it's so surface level because we kind of like, know, astrology here and palmistry here, and we think it's a pseudo science at best. But when you actually think of like how many millennia we've studied these things, it puts a whole different slant on it. It's like, my goodness, we've studied this more than we've studied anything. And that just came to mind as you were saying that about astrology and psychology. It was like, of course.

That was one of the ways we understood the psychology of people.

Jessica (20:06)

I love that. mean, our entire astronomical knowledge of anything from how the night and the day work to the monthly lunar cycle to us going around the sun all comes out of astrology. Astrology, because of the way you're describing our focus on the sky, our focus on the body, our trying to understand how to survive on this planet, that there must be some sense to

Lian (20:22)

Mmm.

Jessica (20:36)

gave us everything from counting in our alphabet to every day of the week named after a planet. It is so deeply embedded in our human consciousness. It would almost be false to say that we're not all astrological because it is an intrinsic part of becoming human. And in our human history, all of our ancestors, going far enough back, were astrologers.

Lian (21:05)

I love this so much. I'm so glad that we've begun here because for me, what I've come to see is astrology in some ways is kind of like first principles and we've forgotten that. so

Jessica (21:24)

Yes.

Lian (21:25)

Yeah, this feels a really honouring way to begin talking about this. And I also want to share something and I kind of fessed up to this to you when we first spoke and then you were like, yeah, me too, really. When I started to feel this call back to astrology, like decades later, since I'd kind of abandoned it in childhood, I still had so much resistance. It's like, okay, I've like, I've got my, you know, I've,

gone past all that resistance I had to say, for example, shamanism or this or that, like, no, astrology is just too far. And it took, because I have such a love of Jung, it took me seeing something that said, I mean, it was a quote that said something like, he'd said at one point, if he could dedicate the rest of his life to one thing, it'd be astrology. And I read that and it was like, okay.

resistance is gone, I'm all in. And it was like the one of those moments where it's like, because understanding how much he was able to understand, it was like, if he could see, not just there was truth in it, but like that degree of truth, or that he said that, there's a there there. And so that for me was like, okay, that this, that this is something very much worth pursuing. So I'd love to hear your your sense on that before we then start to have a look at the thing itself.

Jessica (22:50)

I think that for a lot of people like yourself Jung is the permission to enter into or back into the astrological world. He used astrology every day with all of his patients and he wrote about it extensively. Excuse me.

And there's something about having respect for somebody's intellect and worldview and contribution that when we have that, we're willing to listen to what they have to say. I mean, some could argue this is the main reason to keep a bond with your child is when we maintain that bond with our children, they are so much more likely to actually want to listen to what we have to

And this goes for any human. so Jung is somebody that gives so many people who maybe are more academic or more intellectual or psychologically oriented the permission to say, hey, it's okay to go and see this for yourself, which is ultimately what we all have to do is we can't take anybody's word for it. We have to go see if the astrology is real. So Jung has been central

Lian (24:05)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Jessica (24:15)

the way that I've learned astrology. And I think that whatever one's entrance into it says a lot about what that soul is needing in order to have that moment of awakening of the sky's ability to speak to

Lian (24:40)

Yes, yeah, I so agree. So I'm going

Look at this from the lens of someone listening that perhaps is not quite like that side of the portal yet, as in they're still in that kind of like, but how can the night sky at the time I was born, how on earth could that have anything really to do with who I am? Why would that be?

Would you mind if we start there? know it's a kind of seemingly quite almost antagonistic and also perhaps simple question, but I feel like there's something there that would be really helpful to open us into everything else.

Jessica (25:21)

I'm out.

Absolutely, I love this question. there's different ways we could approach it One is is that we know now just from a physics standpoint that everything is interconnected in a web of being that there actually isn't any separation between things So the space that we perceive and all the atoms in it We have a perception that there's an emptiness or there's a distance or separation. Actually

and you see this a lot when you take psychedelics, this space isn't empty at all. This space is actually vibrating like a rainbow kaleidoscopic, iridescent grid that some people could image as, you know, concept is like Indra's net. It's like, no, it's all energy. It's all connected energy. Another way into it is thinking of the sky as an extension of the Earth's ecosystem.

We know that all of the plants and the animals on earth create a symbiotic relationship that gives life and makes life possible. The same is true with the sky. The sky isn't up there and we're here. Actually, it begins right here. We are already in outer space. We're on a rock flying through outer space. But actually, the sky is an extension of our ecosystem.

and it's part of our home that we're embedded in and that we live in. What it happens to do, which I think most spiritual paths take us to this knowing, is it simply is a reflection, an outer reflection of the inner life. So that's where we get the phrase, as above, so below. What that's just pointing to is that no matter where we look, we see this holographic fractal expression.

Lian (26:53)

Mmm.

Jessica (27:18)

of the Omnigenesis of creation. That means that at every point in the universe is the origin of the universe and the universe is coming out of that place. So that's why no matter where we are, we're always at the center of the universe. You're in it, I'm in it. Well, the birth chart shows us how we are in a personal center of our own meaning and what it reflects and that kind of snapshot of the heavens and the moment and the time and the place of your birth.

Lian (27:40)

Mmm.

Jessica (27:47)

is it shows you your ecological landscape of meaning, that your soul is getting to uniquely participate in this life. And it shows you the qualities of your life experience, from your personality to your career to your relationships to the gifts and the challenges you have, because I believe the universe loves us so much that it wants to give us this cosmic and human understanding

No, you are meant to be here. This is intelligent and it's intelligible. And astrology is one way that we can be able to symbolically understand the intelligence of why I'm born right here, right now, and what I'm doing here. And so it's a map to guide us in how to move through this wild mystery of uncertainty.

Lian (28:43)

my goodness, I'm so glad I asked that question. my goodness, beautiful, really beautiful. Yeah, there was, I'm journeying with something at the moment that I haven't yet been able to put words to, but there was something in part of what you've said that touched into that.

from a personal perspective, I'm really glad I asked you that too. So I'm wondering if it would be, you tell me how you think it would be good to take this a step deeper, but I'm wondering whether it might be good to pick an example of, say for example, a particular.

something in a chart, it could be yours, it could be mine, it could be, you know, one of your clients, mine. Okay. I'll share with you one of the juicy parts of mine. And then talk about like, why is that something that is illuminating? How would it help to know that? How might we work with that? How might that show up psychologically? Some of the so forth. Would that sound good? Excellent. Okay. So if I just pick something at random, if it's something else we better and we'll go there. Okay.

Jessica (29:55)

Yes, please. Yes.

Lian (30:05)

I have a five planet stellium in Libra in the seventh house. And not all of them, but many of those are conjunct and includes my sun.

Jessica (30:13)

Mm -hmm.

do you know what those planets

Lian (30:24)

Yes, so the sun, Venus, Uranus, Pluto, and what have I missed?

Jessica (30:36)

Okay, okay, great. Yeah, so that tells us a whole lot about you and there's so many ways that we could take that in. Mercury, perfect.

Lian (30:44)

Mercury. Sorry, Mercury is the other one. How could I forget.

Jessica (30:47)

Perfect. Yeah, so we could take that one at a time, but let's just first start by saying that a stellium that's that large of five planets is very rare. A stellium is when there's three or more planets together. So in the sky in a conjunction.

Lian (31:02)

I'll just add as well, just for extra flavour, if I do a natal chart that includes the asteroids, most of them are also over there too. So the stellium becomes this like mechastellium.

Jessica (31:17)

Okay, okay. So this piece of information, though it's not the entire birth chart, we could literally spend weeks and weeks and weeks talking about. And the reason that is, is because when we bring in death psychology to these astrological symbols, we can go into complexity and nuance of every single aspect of your life. So let's go into it and I can start

Articulate it and give examples and then you jump in in any way you want to, okay? Okay. So let's just start taking the planets together. So Sun and Mercury, the Sun is your identity and your sense of self. It's who you are as a creative individual and it's also your life's mission. So it most specifically represents your individuation process. The other planets that touch the Sun show us how you individuate, what your mission is about, how you're gonna go about

and the gifts and challenges to be aware of are the light and shadow expressions of that journey. So, Sun Mercury is someone who usually has a strong message to bring out into the world. There's someone who is very much oriented towards ideas, learning, teaching, being a lifelong student, being a lifelong teacher, and having a message to bring to humanity that is central to your identity and sense of self. It's how you get your purpose,

It's how you grow and it's a highly creative process for you. So speaking, writing, teaching are gonna be central to who you are as a person. When you add in Venus, that tells us that that's gonna be happening in a highly creative and artistic way. That you want to infuse beauty and love, reciprocity, balance, harmony into everything you do.

So when you speak, it's a profound connection between the mind, logos, and the heart, eros. So you are someone who moves through the world with your head and your heart unified together through your personhood. Everywhere you shine your solar light, everywhere you put your attention, your kind of purpose in doing that is both awakening of the mind and awakening of the heart. And

Because of the Venus and the five planets in Libra, which is ruled by Venus, you are someone who is very much guided by the Venusian principles of Aphrodite, the goddess of love and beauty. You seek to harmonise relationships and you harmonise ideas and you have the gift of being able to see things from all different sides and then creatively weaving it together into something beautifully holistic

and again heart centered.

There's shadow aspects to everything. Okay? So what are the challenges of that? Well, Libra and a strong Venus is gonna be someone who is naturally going to be a people pleaser. That's somebody who is gonna be more prone to accommodating and placating and also someone who's more easily going to have the challenge of losing themselves in

relationship because you're so oriented towards the other. If you grew up in a childhood experience where other people took advantage of that, then you're gonna be someone who's conditioned to be so attuned to the other that you would have the challenge of knowing how to know what you actually want and like. And so there can be challenges there in psychology that we call around like codependence and enabling or enmeshment. But

when worked with and your gift is relationships, especially because it's all in the seventh house, partnership, marriage, business partnerships are the places that you shine. You're really good at one -on -one relationships and you're really good at partnerships. And it's like your superpowers, your ability to come into relationship and make magic happen. But because Uranus is there, it's all in service of freedom, liberation, emancipation, breakthrough, rebirth, renewal.

Lian (35:35)

Mmm.

Jessica (35:43)

new beginnings, it's highly innovative and experimental, paradigm breaking, extremely progressive and liberal, rebellious, revolutionary, right? So you are both the rebel and the revolutionary, and you're also the person who is trying through just being who you are, wake other people up. So you are waking up and then you're the light bringer who wants to wake and emancipate the other people. But because Pluto is there,

It brings that depth of power and transformation, the driving force of evolution. So it's also very shamanic, chthonic, bringing in the darker aspects of life, bringing in the unconscious and the underworld, bringing in that profound connection to nature, animals, biology. And so you don't just seek to liberate and emancipate and awaken, you also are looking to go deep into

life and be transformed through the death rebirth process. And everybody that you encounter who engages in these kind of seventh house intimate partnerships with you, whether that's your partner, your children, your business partner, your students are going to essentially step into this cauldron with you where they get to receive the alchemy of all of those gifts that you bring. And that's like your gift to humanity through that relational access that you bring

Lian (37:12)

wow. my goodness, I feel so seen. Yes, there's so, so much, so much in that that it's funny. So firstly, I feel like this

Jessica (37:12)

So that's one way we could approach

yay, good. That's the goal. Cosmic witnessing.

Lian (37:37)

I wish I could spend longer acknowledging the depth of seeing and like such tender expression that I feel in what you've just shared. But because I need to get on with the episode, kind of like, probably afterwards want to say more about all of that to you. But firstly, thank you. It's what I found so interesting as I've kind of come back to astrology is

aspects that have taken such a long time to discover about myself through all of the other routes and work that I've done. It's like, if for example, and again, it's all perfect as it is, but if for example, I could have sat with someone like you, and they could have told me that, you know, however many years ago, but how much simpler it would have been to have like had this kind of blueprint, this star print, this gold print to work with right from the get go. And it's like the

The specificity that's there is incredible, isn't it? Like everything you've just shared has been shown to me in so many different ways over and over again throughout my life. And it was there all along.

Jessica (38:50)

Hmm. Yeah, so I feel like what a really good astrology reading does is it provides us cosmic affirmation from something much larger than ourself that who we are and what we're going through is not only valid, but is exactly how we were built.

Lian (39:17)

Mmm.

Jessica (39:18)

And once we recognise that, then the magic that gets to happen is the sacred relationship that we get to come into with our chart. And we get to start to make different kinds of choices based on the awareness of this five planet stellium in the seventh house by saying, these are your gifts. And you know

These are the things to look out for. These are your challenges. And these are the ways to work with those challenges to help your soul grow and to lessen your suffering. And these are the ways to protect those gifts and for you to get to decide how you want to use them. Instead of them just happening unconsciously, you actually get to have a say in how you're going to express them out into the world. And that's where I get most excited.

Lian (40:11)

Hmm.

Jessica (40:14)

because now we're talking about a relationship of sacred participation and the human being, it's like instead of events happening to the human, the human gets to happen to the events. And I agree, what I don't understand now, 17 years into this, how I would make sense of what is going on in my life, especially in those moments of crisis and immense suffering.

Lian (40:27)

Mmm.

Jessica (40:44)

Why is this happening? What do I do? I just can't fathom not having the astrology to help me give meaningful context and a ground of being to say, yes, this is what's happening, but also this is how long this has to happen for. So now we know the why so we can endure the suffering, but we also know, yeah, and this is a five year window or this is a one year window.

Lian (40:56)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Jessica (41:13)

And these are the stages within that year. And this is how that's unfolding is gonna go. And with each of those stages, these are the types of things that we can expect. And also what we've seen is if you respond to these things in this way, the quality of your

immensely

Lian (41:35)

Mm. Yes. my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. I've just recalled how practical this understanding can be. Just recently, my husband, I won't go into too much detail because it's personal to him, but he was having one of those periods that he was kind of plunged into a sudden change where everything he knew, his identity, like it was all shifting.

astrologically, it was all right there. It was so, like so specific, what was being shown in the stars and what was happening in his life. And he isn't into any of this whatsoever, but it got to the point where he could see it was so perfect. It really started to give him this sense of, it's okay. You know, this is happening for this reason. And like you say, it's gonna last until this time. And it lasted like almost exactly to the time.

that astrologically it was meant to. And it was so wonderful watching this thing that he's never really, he doesn't poo poo what I do, but he's not like he's, you know, he's just not his bag. And he could really see like, this has actually been incredibly helpful to me. And so yeah, just the, there was something so deeply, going back to what you saying earlier, humans studied these things for survival, for practical reasons.

And that was such a great example of like, was so helpful and practical.

Jessica (43:02)

Absolutely.

I'm so glad that he got to have that because what human being, when going through sudden change and an identity shift, doesn't need to be held. And it's like the cosmos, when the cosmos can hold us, when we can be held by the universe, I think it has a chance to do something for us spiritually. And if we sit with the implications of, wow, this actually works.

then it fundamentally changes everything about our human experience. And for me, what it does is it gives me trust, it gives me faith, it gives me courage, but it also gives me empowerment to say, you know, I see this thing is going on in the sky. I see what's happening in my

If I trust what I know about the wisdom of the planets and what they have to teach us, and I have the courage to apply it to my life situation, what this tells me is that I am going to get to the exact place that my soul needs to be in order to live the best and most meaningful life that I can. And every time I do that, which is scary every

my life makes so much more sense and my nervous system can let go and relax and sink deeper and deeper in to this human experience. And that's what I love about astrology.

Lian (44:50)

Yes. Yeah, there's something so true and yet forgotten in

how held we are, you know, that we're, can in this kind of individual and yet not individuated culture that we're in, this is a strange thing where we just like battle on as if we're alone whilst being codependent with everyone around us. And yet the truth is kind of like the reverse of that. It's like the path is to walk alone in the knowing there's people, beings, things.

stars all around us.

Jessica (45:35)

I love that. I don't think there's a greater gift that we can get than having that felt experience of being held and that we're not alone and that this is all meant to be. That fundamentally shifts what's going on here. And I think what it does is it starts to give human beings safety in their bodies because a lot of our human insanity, I think, comes from not feeling safe in our bodies around this planet.

Lian (45:45)

Hmm.

Jessica (46:05)

because the vast majority of us don't know why we're here or what the hell is going

Lian (46:10)

Yes, I so, agree. I just want to come back to something you said earlier about my chart. More as a, it's not really, I mean, there's clearly probably a self -interest here, but it's more just an interesting aspect to touch on as perhaps an example. So.

my, you know how you're saying about all of that kind of Libra and Venus and it taking place in the second house, sorry, seventh house, brings with it this kind of like losing myself in others and people pleasing. And there's in some ways, that's been true. And some ways it hasn't. And I think that's partly been because of again, this is only me sort of joining the dots backwards.

I think that Uranus conjunction has been so strong to the point where periods of my life is like I'm more, more been the rebel than anything else. And so it's been like this saving grace in a way. I mean, it's caused me untold other problems just to say it's not been all easy or good, but it's, I think it's like...

where that may have been the tendency, it's been like this kind of like shocking, like, no, there's no way I can do what is expected, go with the flow, fit into other people's expectations. I need to actually do the opposite. And again, that's caused its own challenges for sure. But my sense is it's like that, that tight, I think it's the tightest conjunction I have actually, I think they're only a degree apart. And I think that has been like a saving grace.

Again, all of it's brought its own journeys and challenges, but I wanted to bring that up as I feel like there's something interesting in that, the specificity of the very specific, like where we've got those bigger trends that you spoke about and then we've got these very specific, like that relationship completely changes how I've journeyed with that stellium.

Jessica (48:15)

Yeah, so Uranus has an outer planet. We'd call it a transpersonal planet. It's a really massive energy where what you just described is it does whatever it touches in the chart, you rebel against that. you know, it's a rebelling against the status quo of tradition of, in this case, the Libra, Venus, Seventh House tendencies of people pleasing. Now we see an interplay of it. Just a little bit I know about

is when we hear your story about leaving the magical world and in a way kind of trying to leave the neurodivergence behind and enter into the mainstream or enter into the neurotypical world, in that moment, we see you trying to attempt to fit in and to be a part and to have those relationships, except what happens? It's not possible. It goes awry and

you come up against this profound confrontation of all the ways that you are different and that there's no escaping that difference that is you. And that's the Uranus. It's the neurodivergence. It's your unique individuality. It's why you're so fascinated in individuation. It's why you came back to astrology. Uranus is the ruler of astrology. And so all of these things, it's like Uranus is there saying,

You can try and resist me. You can try and get rid of me. But that's just going to wreak havoc, chaos, and disruption in your life. And though it might cause issues to rebel in certain ways, it is of a greater price that you will pay if you don't accept that this is intrinsic to who you are and your identity, the way in which your mind functions, the way you show up in relationship, the way that you love, how you love, who you love.

Lian (49:57)

Hmm.

Jessica (50:13)

Like this is who you are and you came to that. And so because of that, you live, and we would expect this with Venus and Libra, you live more or less in greater harmony with the principles of Uranus. Whereas other people are still spending their life force energy trying to resist their neurodivergence or the ways in that they're different or the ways that they're Uranian. And that causes

Lian (50:28)

Mmm.

Jessica (50:43)

immense suffering whenever we go against our constitution. So I think the Uranus is the part in

that knows that your freedom is the most important thing and that ultimately you will have that be your guiding light even when it's awkward and uncomfortable and disruptive.

Lian (51:08)

Yes, I feel like there's something again for me personally there's so much in what you've just said but I also I'm appreciating more more widely the ways that these again it's there's there's like the kind of the key and the lock come together don't they

And again, these really intricate ways in everyone's chart, in everyone's psyche, like each time we think, that's the problem, there is this kind of like other little route, which is going to take us on another journey. And yet it kind of all works together as long as we can devote to seeing it fully to embodying it fully. It's all right there.

Jessica (51:52)

Hmm. Yeah, I mean so much just in our connection essentially what you give the gift of is when you come into relationship with another human and there is Consent there as there is between you and I is it opens up this profound relational creative Channel where you and I get to co -create something Marvelously better than we could by ourselves and that's a huge

of the way that you use the Libra 7th house Venus gifts to channel the Uranus Pluto. And so this is a very Uranus Pluto experience we're having, but it's through this relational one -on -one thing we're doing. Whereas that same energy could be used Uranus to rebel against it and say, F you, I'm not doing relationship or I'm rebelling against these gifts or I'm not gonna show up in intimacy and connection. Or the Pluto could repress it and try to shove it down and say, I'm not going into the depths and I'm not willing to

Lian (52:50)

Mm.

Jessica (52:51)

But instead you're saying, no, I embrace it, let's do it. And so even the fact that like our first episode wasn't planned is so Uranian of you're like, hey, it's spontaneous. I'm feeling it. Do you want to do it? And of course me being Uranian is like, yeah, let's do it. You're not going to jive as well with people who aren't going to be in the playful spontaneous mode because that's more akin to your natural state. So it's like, these are the ways we can play with

Lian (53:01)

I'm

Mm, I love that. Just what just occurred to me talking about Pluto then is the way that I did go through quite a long phase of my life, still in resistance and certainly in resistance to Pluto. Sorry, my dog's had enough again. And then it was the sudden death of my father that

kind of like just broke me open to a completely different worldview. Worldview doesn't even quite cosmos for you. And took me on the path to where I am now. And I often look back and I think there is so much Pluto in the work I do and the places I'm drawn, which are a bit contrary really. Cause in some ways I'm so kind of like, you know,

daylight and joy and you know, those kind of things. And yet there's always been this like, underbelly of Pluto calling. And I find it fascinating that was the death of my father that did that. You know, it's kind of like, okay, you can't ignore this anymore. Your is time to go

Jessica (54:32)

Yeah, I think Pluto shows us that. I imagine also wherever your Saturn placement shows us that, that when you go through a death and specifically hear the death of your father, that is what's going to initiate you into the Plutonic realm, the Plutonic part of you and everything that your father and your childhood experience with him held for you to come back to and rediscover from this.

Lian (54:49)

Mm

Jessica (55:00)

older, more experienced place. so Pluto in the Eighth House is through the death of this primary attachment figure, you die and reborn and are transformed into the next iteration of every part of your identity, including your cosmology. And you see that often with a Pluto

seventh house or a Pluto Sun placement that sometimes it is through the death of the father that allows us to be able to go into those places. And now obviously so much of your work is that because Pluto out of all the planets I think most relates to the soul and soul making and is like the death of your father was a soul making experience that

Lian (55:41)

Mmm.

Jessica (55:57)

you carry with you through the rest of your life and almost in a way your whole life is like an unfolding of that

Lian (56:05)

Hmm. Yes. my goodness. I feel like I could happily talk for another five hours at least, if not five years. I guess we need to start to bring this to a close. What else do you feel would be, and again, I feel like we've only just scratched the surface. I mean, we could easily do a full episode just on this topic. I know. But for the moment, what do you feel would be?

A helpful thing to say, something to invite listeners into that would allow them to have even a taste of what you're talking about in terms of understanding the real soul deep truth that is going to be held in their natal child. Where could someone start with taking a step in that direction?

Jessica (57:01)

I mean, the best thing to do is to get an astrology reading from a trusted, highly recommended astrologer. Someone where you get to spend an hour or two just fully sitting with the complexities of your natal chart. That's the best thing to do. The next best thing to do is to maybe just take one thing that you can know about your chart, that you're a Libra or you have a Virgo moon.

go to, again, trusted sources to just get to sit and reflect and contemplate on if you feel that this resonates and lands for you. The thing is, is there's so much now today on astrology, and unfortunately, there's a lot out there that isn't helpful, isn't accurate, and can cause harm. And so it's like,

Lian (57:53)

Mm.

Jessica (58:00)

I don't suggest just Googling it because honestly, I hope this isn't too strong. I think 90 % of it is crap, but the really, really, really good stuff is gold. And so it's about you getting to have a safe, trusted experience of your own chart. That's gonna always be the best way in. Yeah, I don't know what else I could say there about that,

Lian (58:16)

mmm

Mmm.

No, I think that's beautiful. And again, the doorway into many things of this nature is via, you know, ultimately, this is a this is a path of our own soul. And so sort of taking that first step via, as you say, even the smallest part of your own chart, through something that is, you know, based in truth, just just one.

you know, as you say, just the sun on one planet can open a whole world of wonders. And so yeah, I love that.

Jessica (59:01)

Yeah, you can go in and put your birth information online and say, you know, calculate my chart and it will tell you, let's say what, you know, your sun sign is, your moon sign is, and then just going in and getting to read about that one thing. The thing is, is when the chart opens to you, almost every person can point to the thing in their chart that convinced them that astrology was real. It's like, when I realised I had this,

Lian (59:26)

Mmm.

What was that for you?

Jessica (59:30)

That's when I was like, yeah, this is real.

Lian (59:34)

Yeah, what was that for you?

Jessica (59:36)

For me, it was my moon trine, Uranus. My moon is an Aries trine, Uranus and Sagittarius. And when you read about moon trine, Uranus, it perfectly to a T describes me, my childhood, my inner life. You know, the moon is who we are as a child. It's our emotional life. It's our relationships. And Uranus in a trine is this like very harmonious, playful, spontaneous, free spirit, creative.

being who everyone goes, well look at that trickster or you know, look at that autistic person and you know, and they'd be like, yeah, it's so awesome, it's so great, what's going on? Yeah, woohoo!

Lian (1:00:23)

I love that. I think for me, it probably was the Libra, Libra stellium. It was just like, even just that just saturation. My moon is also Taurus. I've got like another dollar per Venus right there. And I think it was just like, I am so benutian. It was just like, of course.

that explains it. I think for me that was that that that really confirmed like that makes so much sense.

Jessica (1:00:54)

I mean, if we just look at you right now, your eyes are Venusian. They're this beautiful, beautiful color. Your earrings are Venusian, the adornment of the jewelry. You're wearing a Venusian star as a necklace. The books behind you are Divine Feminine and Goddess and Every Woman. This is all Venus. When we look at you and the colors and the textures, the instruments, the sound in your voice, your laughter, every part of you is the expression of Aphrodite. And when you

that many repetitions of the signature over and over again. It's the universe's most efficient way to say, this is you. This is who you're meant to be. Keep going. You're doing great. This, I mean, this is how the goddess made

Lian (1:01:34)

Mmm.

Yeah, I love that so much. Actually talking about what you saying then about autism. Have you seen, this is a little bit edgy perhaps to go into, but have you seen anything in people's charts that suggests neurodivergence? Have you seen kind of like particular aspects that would suggest

Jessica (1:02:05)

So I think, yes, I will say this, I think that neurodivergence is separate from the chart in astrology, so any chart could be someone who's neurodivergent or any neurodivergent person could have any chart. That being said, are there certain signatures that we would probably see in someone who's neurodivergent? Yeah, you're probably going to see a strong Uranus and you're probably going to see a strong Neptune.

Lian (1:02:19)

No.

Jessica (1:02:34)

So in your case, it's like a sun Uranus, a Mercury Uranus, a Venus Uranus. Yeah, that person is much more likely to be divergent because Uranus is eccentric. It's outside of the box. It's unique. It's different, right? It does things in a non -typical manner. Whereas Neptune is also our spirituality and our imagination. It's non -linear. It's image -based.

Lian (1:02:47)

No.

Mmm.

Jessica (1:03:03)

And so a Sun Neptune or Mercury Neptune person is probably if they're either going to be neurodivergent or they're going to have a lot of neurodivergent qualities about them. And so at the very least, can, whether or not say, you're neurodivergent or not, we can talk about how your mind works. We can talk about the way you think and you learn and process reality based on your chart.

Lian (1:03:31)

Hmm.

Jessica (1:03:32)

But I think if I were to really speak truly on it, I think that the soul that comes in and communes with the chart and expresses itself through it, if that soul is neurodivergent, what I see more than like an aspect correlation is that chart is expressed in a neurodivergent way. So that chart is going to come through in a more kind of multi -dimensional

kaleidoscopic way there's going to be more texture and color and variation and enthusiasm than a neurotypical soul in this lifetime expressing through that chart so I think the chart has a tendency to be more vivid and come more to life when a neurodivergent person is expressing it if you're asking

Lian (1:04:04)

Hmm.

hmm that makes so much sense i love that and it probably won't surprise you to know my neptune is conjunct jupiter in the eighth

Jessica (1:04:38)

yes, of course. Yes. Well, you've got, if there are signatures, you have all of

And if I may speak for the universe, the goddess is very pleased with your neurodivergent self expressing through all of those combinations because gosh, it's just so much more fascinating, isn't it?

Lian (1:05:07)

yes. Again, I think there's points in our lives where we're like, I'm on my soul path. yeah, it's I think there's those looking at it from an astrological perspective. I think it's like those times where we're starting to fully live out that particular placement. And certainly, the last decade or so has been me really beginning to live that placement out.

in a way where it's just like, yes, this is, this is the path. This is the way.

Jessica (1:05:41)

I want to say just one thing about the Jupiter Neptune in the eighth house, which is the Jupiter Neptune is the The way that manifested in your life was being born into a magical world So you were born into a magical world, but it's in the eighth house And so what happens when planets are in the eighth house just like Pluto is they have to go through a transformation and that death rebirth process that happens

usually requires that whatever is in our eighth house at a time and a stage in our development gets repressed and locked in the underworld. We have to reject it so that we can then choose to descend back into it, decondition, un -layer, pull it all back, and then reclaim the boon that's there in the underworld. It's like an anana descent back into the Jupiter Neptune so that you could come back into it say, no, I am a

spiritual being on a shamanic journey that can be open to all the things including astrology and magic mushrooms and palmistry and all the things but usually because dad Raised you he's gonna represent the Jupiter Neptune But it's in your eighth house and it's the pluton the Pluto in the seventh that required him in your case to die For you to come into the Jupiter Neptune in the eighth.

So just to kind of like, it helps give us meaning of the specific individuation process of your journey, which I think is, you kind of to come back to it. It's like, this is what that gives us is it shows us your individuation process. It shows us both the why and the

Lian (1:07:06)

Mmm. I that. Mmm.

Yes. I love that mic drop ending. my goodness. Where can listeners find out more about you and the wonderful work you do,

Jessica (1:07:34)

You

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me at TrustPsyche .com that has everything that I do there from my depth psychotherapy practice with individuals and couples that includes astrology to my online astrology and depth psychology school I've been doing over the last decade with my husband Travis DiRuzza. We run that together. There's six online on -demand courses there that essentially teach you how to do all of this if you want to know how to do it, if you want to know how to read your chart or other people's charts. So from beginner.

to professional, it's all there. If you're looking for a really good astrology reading, my husband Travis DiRuzza is the one that gives those. He is a phenomenal human, a very compassionate and wise being and astrologer. And so you can go to trustpsyche .com and see how to contact him for that. Or if you're like, you know what, I just wanna hear more about all of this, then that's where you can also find my podcast, Trust Psyche, and all of my YouTube videos

that go into each one of these topics in greater detail. So there I am!

Lian (1:08:52)

And as I said last time, I highly, highly recommend everything you do. yeah, I really hope listeners do go and check that out, which I'm sure they will after having listened to this. Well, this has been such a pleasure. Like I say, I could absolutely continue, but for the moment at least, we need to bring it to a close. But thank you so much. This has been an absolute light. Thank

Jessica (1:09:15)

I'm so glad it brings me such great joy and honor to get to share in this moment with you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

Lian (1:09:23)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth...

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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