Lost boys and found connection: The initiation of modern men (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Hello my beautiful mythical old souls and a huge warm welcome back. Could the modern crisis facing young men actually be an invitation, a mythical call to finding a deeper, more meaningful connection to life? In this episode, I'm joined once again by past guest Mark Walsh.

Mark has spent the last 20 years helping people get out of their heads and into their bodies.

And as he says, sometimes gracefully, sometimes not. Mark is a teacher and founder of Embodiment Unlimited and he's a passionate mentor dedicated to helping young men find purpose and direction in this increasingly disconnected world. Together we journey into the heart of modern masculinity, exploring the four profound disconnections at the root of today's suffering, body, social, ecological, and spiritual and how restoring these essential connections can guide young men out of isolation and towards purposeful living.

Reflecting on Mark's own transformative past from troubled youth to mentor ancient principles, we explore how reconnecting with the body, community, nature and spirit holds the power to heal both individual lives and the wider cultural decay.

Ultimately, this conversation shines a light on how we might help young men return to themselves, reclaiming their inherent value. beyond societal expectations in our fractured modern world.

And before we jump into all of that good stuff, I have opened the doors to my upcoming Crucible for Women Beauty Potion. It is the alchemical antidote to the beauty wound. You can find out all about it and join me at bemythical.com slash beauty.

And if you're struggling with the challenges of walking your soul path in this crazy modern world and would benefit from guidance, support and kinship, come join the Academy of Soul, UNIO. You can find out more and join us by hopping on over to bemythical.com slash UNIO or click the link in the description.

And now back to this week's episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (02:23)

Hello, Mark. Welcome back to the show. Yes. Do you know what? actually, did know that you'd been on many years ago, but it was so many years ago until that moment. I was like, it is a welcome back actually, isn't it? Yes. And on a different sort of different topic too, which I'm really looking forward to getting into.

Mark Walsh (02:27)

It's nice to see you again. 

It is. It is.

Yeah, I mean, my main topic for years has always been embodiment and that continues. You know, I train embodied coaches, guess trauma I know for, for the work I did in Ukraine around trauma and resilience. And I've recently started working much more with young men, primarily around life purpose. I see a lot of sort of lost young men and that expresses in everything from suicidality to mental health, to drug addictions, all things I've been through myself when I was a young man.

Lian (02:48)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (03:15)

And essentially, I've now got to a point of maturity at 45, where can help the young helping the young man I was as it were, that's often the journey is your deepest work comes from your deepest wounds, as one of my teachers says. So yeah, I think I've reached that point now. And this hugely important work and I'm loving it.

Lian (03:22)

Yeah.

completely.

Well, that's what I would love to know. And you've already touched upon this. And I think as you say, that's that kind of archetypal wounded healer, which, you know, I just see show up over and over again. And love that the arc, the way that the wound becomes medicine. But let's start there. Why this passion for helping young men to find, I guess you could say you named it as purpose. And I perhaps would even say it's perhaps a sense of self, like a deeper sense of who they are.

Mark Walsh (04:04)

Yeah.

Lian (04:05)

But why that passion?

Mark Walsh (04:07)

I think it comes from my own journey, like most things. And I guess also another one is I just worked with a lot of sort of middle-aged women in coaching for a long, long time, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm quite happy to keep working with that group. And then I worked with a lot of young women in the Ukraine project where I was teaching people to work with trauma. you know, I started a charity in Ukraine, helping people learn about trauma because most of the young guys are fighting. So was working with young

which is great.

Also not a problem. And then I sort of had, just had the urge. I kept having coaches and people would come to my courses as young guy and my assistant would say, you're great with these guys. They love it. They love it. And I say, yeah, because they're hungry for someone who they respect, who gives them some direction, who gives them some sense of purpose in that they've mostly been raised by women. You know, there's a lot of heroic single mums out there doing their best, but you know, they can't do everything.

Lian (04:42)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (05:01)

And a lot of the school teachers they've had are women. It just seems to be the way the school system's set up. And on a wider note, we could even say society's become kind of feminized and they've been told they're toxic and bad and wrong. And the only role models they have are really unpleasant ones. There's Andrew Tate's The World, which if they've got half a brain, they'll look at and go, God, there's got to be, you know, there's got to be something healthier than that. You know, they can see him with his sports cars and all these girls. I think that's, you know, smart boys got to go, this is not the way they spiritually feel that intuition.

Lian (05:05)

Mm.

Yeah.

Mark Walsh (05:30)

So they were just lapping up when I was like, when I had one or two young guys in my workshop. And then I thought, you know what, let's help out. And first of all, it was in person. Like I've got various friends locally to me and there'd be single mums or, you know, lesbian couples and they'd say, look, can you take my boy out for a coffee? And I'd be like, well, what am I going to do? It's a bit weird as it's got older guy, trying to go out for coffee. But I said, look, I go to the gym. I'll take him to the gym. You know, he can come to the gym with me because a lot of young guys, they like the gym and I go to go regularly and it's kind of doesn't feel so weird as a guy, you know.

Lian (06:00)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (06:00)

And so yeah, I take them to the gym and then we'd really work on a lot of issues and you know, they'd get great results and their mums would be delighted and they'd be happy. And at a certain point I thought, know, we've got to scale this. I started a YouTube channel, started wrote a book and you know, cause there's only so many boys I can get to the gym locally. So yeah, it's been fabulous. Been really enjoying it. But as I said, it really, really comes from our own personal journey. I think ultimately.

Lian (06:19)

Hmm.

there's so much in there and I really relate to what you were saying about those mothers. As I think I've mentioned to you, my son's 16 and all of these things, the things that he and I have spoken about and you mentioned Andrew Tate and I think you're right.

because of his message and it can seem like it's one of hope and direction and something different to what boys are experiencing or young women are experiencing and so can be alluring and yet you know some at least like my son does at least have that discernment to kind of go like yeah it doesn't feel

Mark Walsh (07:04)

Right. I

Lian (07:07)

it's danger of it isn't it because there is something in it that is speaking to men.

Mark Walsh (07:09)

Well, there's some very good stuff in it.

There's a couple of things in it. One, he's saying the things about masculinity, but are true, but no one's saying, right? He's saying things, you know, obvious things like men and women are different. You know, there's utterly bizarre things that society is bizarrely denying. So anyone who says the truth could then mix in whatever they want with that truth. And the second thing is he is potent. You know, he's physically capable. He's wealthy, successful as it were with women on one level. And, it's better to be potent.

Lian (07:17)

Hmm.

Mm.

Mark Walsh (07:40)

that's a step towards masculinity. I I sometimes say he's like a 12 year old boy without a dad's version of masculinity. So it's a very, it's a caricature of masculinity, but it's still potent, which is better than being a, a doomer kind of lame, seeing a home playing computer games, masturbating to porn. You know, at least it's a step towards virility and strength. even if it's in a very crude lower chakra kind of strength. So it's not all bad, you know, and anyone that says it's all bad hates masculinity.

Lian (07:47)

Hmmmm

Yes.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (08:08)

And anyone that thinks Tate's all good is, I think, missing the real beauty of masculinity as well. So, yeah, I think it's a starting point. mean, Jordan Peterson maybe was the first, but was very kind of intellectual. So I think he almost re-parented a generation of boys in terms of giving them some sort of sense of like, hey, know, discipline and order. And it's very interesting because the sort of mum message is often, well, you're lovely how you are. You know, my mum always said to me, I was so grateful to my mum.

Lian (08:13)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (08:38)

She always said, you can be anything you want and you're lovely and I love you no matter what. And you know, Jordan Peterson comes along and says, tidy your room. You're not good enough. You can be better. It's sort of like we need Gabor Maté on the one hand, who's the maternal side, you know, everything's fine. You're perfect. And we also need the sort of Gabor Maté and this sort of, you know, healthy version of Tate, as it were, on the other. And society is all out of whack and it tends to sort of go to these extremes. there's a natural.

Lian (08:44)

Hehehehehe

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (09:07)

readjustment happening. And I certainly found that in my own life. For me, I had a lot of good male mentors through martial arts. You know, I, just wasn't used to being around, I didn't have a great relationship with my dad. He was a drinker and that wasn't the best, you know, later in life where you healed that relationship. But when I was a teen, I didn't respect him and he wasn't always a sort of gentle man as it were. And, it wasn't until I got to martial arts, like again, I came for the virility, I came for the strength, I didn't come because it was nice, but then I learned.

Lian (09:14)

yes.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (09:37)

discipline and character training. And I was around these older guys who were very caring and had some great mental figures. I could reel off four or five older men. just really helped me in Aikido. And yeah, I think eventually if people help you, the natural urge is to play it forward. So now I've just got to a certain age. I don't yet have children of my own. I have that urge to play it forward or play it back, you know, the younger generation.

Lian (09:55)

Yeah.

Mark Walsh (10:02)

And it's a joy, frankly. And to be honest, it's the easiest coaching you'll ever do because a teen boy like your son or a little bit older, they're so primed to look at a man who's cool, but not their dad, right? Like a cool uncle. They're so primed for that. Like it's the easiest coaching I've ever done and get some of the best results.

Lian (10:12)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mm, oh,

yeah, so fulfilling. Yeah, I love what you mentioned there about martial arts. My son does martial arts and yeah, it's one of those things I'm so glad. I did a lot of martial arts when I was younger. I never wanted to push my children into it, but there was definitely that moment when they both sort of found that. was like, yes! Yeah, think, mm.

Mark Walsh (10:37)

Right. Well, it's character training, right? Now we don't have a concept of character training in our culture. So the Japanese have it, know, Budo is the way of martial arts. It's not fighting, right? It's character training. And the Greeks had that. And even the Victorians had that. They would, know, modern sports were essentially invented by British public schools as character training.

Lian (10:48)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (11:05)

that they've lost, you know, the average football or rugby club has lost that element now. Whereas the martial arts have retained that element of the Greeks would call it Adatate Virtue or Excellence. And particularly the sort of masculine virtues of self control, healthy stoicism, strength, you know, these are not bad things. We want men with those. And I just see so many smart, lovely mums who kind of totally get that. You know, they get that they've done their best and they're brilliant.

and everyone needs a good mum and I'm so lucky I had one. And they get, can't, they've got the humility to say, can't give them everything. And if you haven't, you know, I'm a cool uncle for my sister's kids. That's great, but not everyone's got an uncle around. So we've lost that element of the tribe, sadly.

Lian (11:42)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yes, absolutely. Talking about this modern context, as you said, you had similar challenges when you were a teen and young man, young, yeah, when you were a young man. What, what do you see is particularly, like perhaps different and maybe more challenging about where we are today in this modern world?

Mark Walsh (12:14)

It's got worse. Same ship, but worse.  so, all right. How big do we want to take this? We could say that all of modernity is a journey into psychological destruction. So we live in the best and worst time to be alive. Why is it the best? Because we're on zoom, you know, we're on, we're doing a podcast and you know, I've got my Sperry smoothie here and you know, you've got your cappuccino or whatever it is and we're on our iPhones and it's brilliant. You know, modern.

We're not starving. You my granddad had a much harder life. but it's also, why is it bad? Cause we're psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually the most disastrous culture that humanity has ever produced. And I don't, that's not subjective. When you look at the rates of, you know, child suicide is now a thing. Drug addiction, you know, medication, mental health, over 50 % of young American women are diagnosed with a mental health problem. So it's not just boys. It's also girls.

Lian (12:55)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Mark Walsh (13:12)

And the causes of that go really back to what could be called the meaning crisis. John Vivekhi, a cognitive scientist, talks about this. Nietzsche probably first identified it. He said, God is dead or the gods are dead, meaning that the world has been stripped of meaning. And this materialism is what's been put in its place. So what does that mean? It means it's only stuff. It takes materialistic. He says, get cars and girls, this is all materialism. When all there is is stuff, all we're left with is hedonism.

Lian (13:25)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (13:42)

We might as well enjoy life because it's, know, narcissism. Cause if there's no God, you're God, you're the center of the universe. And if we become head and it stick, we become addicted. You know, I've run that experiment personally with multiple substances and pot Russian girls. And, that's, that's, that's, know, addictions of all kinds lead to. I thoroughly fucking tested it. I'll tell you, I've tried it on many. It's been up my nose out my dick all through all the different orifices.

Lian (13:52)

You give that really good test!

you

Mark Walsh (14:09)

And let me tell you, it doesn't work very well. So, you know, I've come to the sort of middle path of Buddhism through the extremes. I think, you know, the sort of Christians and Buddhists and Muslims who say, let's practice some restraint are perhaps not insane. Yeah. And now I think we're essentially what we live in now, I would call the anti-culture and it's a best materialistic, which leads to, you know, addictions and despair, et cetera.

Lian (14:25)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Walsh (14:38)

at worst demonic, if you were going to get spiritual about it, I'd say there is a strong case that it's actually demonic. And it's certainly bad for us just as measured psychologically, sociologically, in any measure you could think of. And these factors of modernity, technology, societal breakdown, loss of the village. I mean, it's disconnection, right? So I talk about four disconnections and four reconnections. It's just what's called the tetrarchy model. So disconnection from body.

Lian (14:42)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mm.

Mark Walsh (15:06)

That's disembodiment. That's where I started my journey. Disconnection from others. That's the death of the village. You know, the where is all the cool uncles and aunts that the child needs, right? You don't have the resources your ancestors did with social animals. The death of connection to land. I know you have sort of a sort of pagan spirituality on some level and that, you know, that lack of eco-regulation is important. And the disconnection from spirit, which we could call the death of God or the meaning crisis.

Lian (15:09)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (15:34)

And those four disconnections, body, social, ecology and spirit, which are all interrelated, leads to dysregulation because we're not self-regulated, we're not co-regulated, we're not eco-regulated and we're not Theo-regulated, just I made up that word. So what that means is we're totally dysregulated and as a result, young boys just can't cope. I young girls too, right? There's slight differences between boys and girls, but I think I can speak more to my own experience as a young man.

Lian (15:55)

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (16:04)

they certainly with young women too, have a lot of these issues and some of them like social media are worse for girls actually. But, yeah. So that's, that's where we're at. We, live in the anti-culture. It's demonic. It's destroying our body, minds and Bit of a black pill. Yeah. I'm sorry to be so depressing. That's not a happy message, but I'm not lying. Am I? What? Do you agree with that? What's, what's your take on that?

Lian (16:17)

Yeah.

Gosh,

yes, yes. In our previous evolution, I'm not quite sure which evolution it was where you and I last recorded, but we've kind of, the last two actually, one was Primal Happiness and then one was Waking the Wild and very much we were looking at the themes that you're talking about here and that disconnection. So I couldn't agree more. What I was just pondering is the way

Mark Walsh (16:46)

No, no.

Lian (16:57)

Well, let me ask this as a question. So more and more I see that the very reason that we're called B mythical is these are not kind of just random happenings like these, everything that's unfolding is a kind of mythical arc and it's a sort of story that's unfolding and it says you talked about this kind of polarity within it and there's like a call to initiations and there's kind of, you know, where things get really bad and then there's like, go on that hero's journey. And so looking at it from that perspective, if you agree that kind of like, ultimately, there is a meaning towards all of this, and it's a call, a deeper call for each of us. From that lens, what do you see?

Mark Walsh (17:43)

Yeah, I mean, this has happened before and will happen again, I think, to quote the great mythology of Battlestar Galactica, I think I'm quoting there. But, you know, everything is cyclical. This is very pagan. Most cultures around the Chinese, the Indians, most indigenous traditions acknowledge that everything is cyclical. Western historians from Spengler onwards have talked about cycles of decay, know, periods of decadence. The Romans had them, the Ottomans had them.

Lian (17:51)

You

Mm-hmm.

Mark Walsh (18:08)

British fandom, you know, we're having the Western decay essentially at this point. And that's okay on one level, everything has a season and we're in the autumn of our culture. And let's see if we can make some of the autumnal nature of our culture less painful, less, less devastating, frankly, so we can, you know, sort of do another cycle and become, it's like, you know, Rome fell, but the Eastern Roman Empire lasted another thousand years in Byzantium until eventually that fell.

Lian (18:26)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (18:37)

So there are these cycles and rebirths of different things. And I think that takes the pressure off a little bit to sort of know there's a bigger picture here. You're right. And these are mythical themes. mean, you know, initiation, you're talking about the lack of initiation of young men, essentially, right? Where young men aren't initiated. So they're seeking death. They're seeking a spiritual death. And others have made this point in men's work better than I have. And there is an initiatory absence that where this sort of,

Lian (18:42)

Mmm. Yes.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (19:06)

I'll you an example. was in a train the other day and there was this sort of football fans there and they were sort of doing this sort of pseudo tribal thing. I like a bit of football. My family Liverpool sports top of the league right now. Uh, but it can get, it's not a substitute for real community. That's what I'm really drunk, really aggressive. And they were like 40 year old guys. And I just thought guys grow up. They just look like sort of flabby drunk man, children. And any woman would have looked at them and just gotten yuck. You know, women have always been a measure of men and any woman would have just gotten.

Lian (19:19)

Mmm.

Hmmmm

Mark Walsh (19:36)

gross, you know, like, ill dehydrated vaginal reaction immediately, you know, so because they they're just gross. And I think we all recognise there's something childish in that, you know, sometimes it's fun to be childish and play with toys. But you know, if you're a 40 year old getting drunk or playing with Harry Potter, or, you know, do it chasing girls all the time, you know, it's like, come on, man. And that was me as well. I got sort of initiated by my work in Ukraine, really.

Lian (19:36)

You

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Mark Walsh (20:05)

traditionally women are initiated by childbirth and men are initiated through war. Yeah, or through some sort of ceremonial death, like they take the boys away from the women. So yeah, this is definitely mythological themes happening. Yeah. Did I answer your question?

Lian (20:09)

Mmm.

Yes.

Hmm.

Yes, it did. It was, was pondering how this, this episode that we're doing actually links really nicely to a couple of conversations I've had with Arthur Haines lately, one of them being about the warrior and how you're right. I think there is this natural drive in men to have that sense of kind of like we're acting together and you know, we are competing against this other team, even if we're doing it indirectly, because we're not the actual ones on the pitch. But it's no, so like, just as you've said that, you know, that's not warrior ship right there. And I think that, yeah, real stark juxtaposition between the two episodes. And yeah, I think that's really, really well said. So I was thinking as you were talking there, how, as you're saying, there's been some really

Mark Walsh (20:51)

Yeah.

Lian (21:13)

really needed and powerful work done to guide men into the kinds of deeper sense of self and masculinity. And I also feel as you were talking how I don't necessarily know that the way that that's spoken about and kind of who that's for is quite what would appeal to young men. I was thinking, you

Mark Walsh (21:41)

No, it's nice. It's e-therapeutic.

Lian (21:43)

Yes, and I think it's kind of like perhaps, and that man needs to kind of live a bit and almost like experience like the opposite of that in order to even like be ready to choose into men's work. When I'm thinking about my son, for example, you know, it just I don't think it would speak to him. Whereas I feel like what your message, the messages you have is much more something that

Mark Walsh (22:00)

Nah, you're not.

Lian (22:07)

know, someone around my son's age or a few years older, I think it's they're much more primed for what you're talking about. There's something in the way that you're speaking and what you're speaking about that really is this gap as far as I can see that's really important to recognise.

Mark Walsh (22:25)

Yeah. I most men's work is very American, which is a confessional emotional culture. And it's very therapeutic. It's often sort of run by therapists and talking about feelings is not something men have ever been big on. And this whole like, Hey, men need to talk about their feelings nonsense. I mean, it's okay. It's 10 % of the answer, but the problem is not men are not talking about their bad lives. The problem is their lives are crap. It's not the fact that they're not talking about it. So this whole, this is essentially a feminine approach to sit and talk.

Lian (22:33)

Mmm.

Mm-mm.

Mark Walsh (22:54)

your feelings and often it already has this sort of off putting hippie element to it, which I could get into, you know, a bit of a hippie, but it's not going to be appealing to most young guys. They just want strength. That's why they're following, know, Hormozi, because he's a big strong guy who makes loads of money, you know, on the internet is they following people that have some life experience, some virility, some strength. And honestly, the solution for most mental health problem for young men is actually just physical health.

Like if you took me, if you gave me like a 17 year old who was not feeling very well emotionally, and then we said, right, we can teach the gym. We can do some strength work. can take you outside every day, a bit of nature, a bit of fresh air, simple things. I'm to put you on real food, stop the vaping, you know, stop the porn, take you off your phone all day long. So we sort of minimize that 90 % of the mental health issues clear up. So they're not actually mental are they at all? If that is the case, they're more physical and environmental.

You know, that's the place to start. would say it's rather than let's psychoanalyse you or talk about your feelings endlessly. That's a waste of time.

Lian (24:00)

So let's get, you talked about those four disconnections and therefore the four reconnections. Again, assuming a young man doesn't have an uncle or a man like you in his life, what could he do? What does that look like?

Mark Walsh (24:04)

Mmm.

Yeah, great. So we call this the tetraarchy model because Greek and Latin names sound cool. The four, I've got a Greek colleague, she claimed it's Greek, that was also the name they gave to the Roman Empire and they divided it into four at one point. So four things basically, right? He needs a program. And this is what I got from say, Alcoholics Anonymous, like 12 step, you have a program, you don't just have a book, you don't have a theory. So he needs four sets of things. One, something for the body could be weightlifting, could be martial arts.

Lian (24:36)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (24:45)

Could be yoga or conscious dance, probably won't be, but could be anything that gets him back in his body he enjoys. So that would be my first thing. know, mum's right. Get off your phone. Sure.

Lian (24:48)

Mm-hmm.

Can I just slow down on that because I think there is something important in what you've just said, like probably not. It's not to say it couldn't also include yoga, but I think there is something in things like, you know, lifting weights or mountain climbing. I've got friends that have kind of been much more that sort of like, yeah, martial arts. I would love to talk a little bit more about why you see those kinds of things in particular as the...

Mark Walsh (25:08)

Yeah, nice. Extreme sports, climbing, they love it.

Well, as to appeal, you know, like anything with a competitive element or a strength element, jiu jitsu is very popular amongst young guys now, you know, that's kind of cool. I think they want something that makes them strong that traditional masculine virtue of strength is not wrong. And, you know, yoga has got kind of a different association, let's say, you know, too feminine, too hippie, whatever. So

Lian (25:31)

Mmm.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (25:44)

You know, they want to go to the gym, they want to do the bench press, they want to do the jiu-jitsu. So let's roll with that. Like why force something on them they don't want to do, you know?

Lian (25:53)

Yeah, I really see and I think again, with this making wrong of masculinity, there can be this lack of understanding of the importance of strength, physical strength, and it not be a shallow thing or a kind of coming from, I don't know, the wrong place, narcissism, there is something in that itself that

Mark Walsh (26:00)

Yeah.

Lian (26:17)

There is a deeper meaning to it, a deeper call to it. The fact you called it a virtue, I think in itself is wonderful word for that.

Mark Walsh (26:21)

It's like beauty.

Strength in itself is a virtue, right? Do you want your husband or your boy to be strong or weak? I think any woman would say I want my husband or my boy to be strong. That's just in and of itself a virtue. But it's also a way to other virtues, right? In the same way as beauty can be shallow beauty, know, can just whatever, get a facelift or something, a boob job, but it can also be the beauty of being a really kind woman, right? Like that's the depth of beauty, the Christian view of beauty is much deeper than just, you know, your makeup or whatever.

Lian (26:28)

Mm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (26:55)

The same with strength.

Lian (26:55)

It's funny you should mention that. Yeah, there's something interesting. I hadn't quite seen the ways those two things are quite polaric in nature. So my work at the moment and the next course I'm running is literally all around beauty as a virtue, that kind of inner and outer beauty and how it can be a kind of alchemical quest far more than this just kind of surface level beauty. So I love what you said there.

Mark Walsh (27:11)

All

After 30 for sure.

And, you know, men and women are different. Sorry if anyone's offended by that. And these the traditional cultures around the world They might have different, you know, Ethiopians might have a different expression of beauty, but the women still adorn themselves. And, you know, the men too, it's nothing wrong with men being beautiful. The young guys actually are quite into aesthetics. That's a thing in the gym. But what is the gym really for? It's to build strength and not, and like from a stoic point of view.

Lian (27:32)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mark Walsh (27:44)

strength of character. Like I was in the gym this morning and yeah, you know, building my biceps as it were. But what I'm really, really doing is learning to work with adversity, learning to not quit when times are tough, you know, and then when I'm, I don't know, teaching in Ukraine, and I'm emotionally distraught and haven't slept for two days, and I'm hearing an awful story of trauma, I've actually got the skill of self regulation and the skill of resilience as a skill set that's being built.

Lian (27:54)

Hmm

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (28:10)

And boys would rather build a skill set through something that also makes them physically strong. you're, you're, is the Greek view of gymnasia wasn't a physical body it was for every level, it was strength at every level. And the physical is just the easiest level to train. Cause it's the most, if I moved to a tantric model, it's the most manifest area of being. So it's the area you can train most easily to, you know, if I say train your mind or your soul, well, it's like, well, how, but if I say train your body, that

Lian (28:27)

Hmmmm

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (28:40)

gets to the other stuff. So doorway, the Japanese of any Japanese person listening is totally obvious. You know, less Koreans, Indians to Chinese, but Japanese school teacher would just be like, of course, that's why we do kendo or judo. Yeah.

Lian (28:42)

The doorway, isn't it? Yes, and it's exactly how,

Mm. Yeah.

Mm. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm really glad we took a little detour around strength. I think there's something so vitally important. Yeah.

Mark Walsh (29:03)

That's the first one. mean, the embodiment part is key there, right, as well. So we're not using sort of a dissociated view of the body as an object, it's the body as part of who you are. And our culture is objectifying, not just sexually, it tends to do that with women. With men, it tends to objectify them as success objects, as objects of money, as objects of power. So our whole culture is objectifying. So it's the embodiment training, you know, with feeling, which most martial arts are.

Lian (29:13)

Yes, absolutely.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (29:31)

mindfulness based, is a view of the body as an aspect of oneself. So that's a profound gateway to the spirituality, you know, opens up. I don't know anyone who doesn't have spiritual experiences who does embodiment work. You don't have to try. I have spiritual experiences while lifting weights in the gym. It's just something that happens.

Lian (29:38)

Hmm... Mm-hmm...

Yeah

Hmm.

Yeah, I really love that. And I think it's something that we have, I think some of our forms of spirituality have actually encouraged this and also the very sort of psychologising nature of Western culture. One of my spiritual studies is the Kabbalah. And from that perspective, it very much does honour the material, the body as divine is not a kind of like, let's try and come out of the body and away from it. It's recognising the divinity of the body.

Mark Walsh (30:22)

it's in the Jewish tradition. I mean, it is a mitzvah to give a woman an orgasm on the Sabbath. You know, like a mitzvah is like the opposite of a sin, right? It's like God is pleased, you know. So, you know, it's in the Jewish tradition, as many of my Jewish teachers said, it's in pagan traditions, in Christian traditions that somehow sometimes have been warped, but they're still there, Buddhist traditions as well. So yeah, that's the body part. That's one of four. Do you want to kind of scratch the itch for listeners of the other three? So first thing is they need some sort of

Lian (30:23)

hmm.

Hehehehehe

Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

I would love to, yes.

Mark Walsh (30:52)

mindful body practice, right? Whatever they love is fine. And you know, as above you encourage your martial arts, brilliant, whatever they want to do. Second one is they need some kind of community. And this is maybe the hardest one, because of the alienation. So use a Marxist word, the alienation of modernity and post modernity. So some kind of brotherhood is really, really helpful. They might get that through the jujitsu club, for example, it might have been scouts traditionally.

Lian (31:03)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (31:20)

absolute disaster letting girls in the scouts. They need that brotherhood of young men and they need mentors. And they need a whole village of influences and connections. And that's not easy. What you know, some, if I'm talking to a young guy, might, it's impossible in the modern world. Yeah, I'm just about to move countries and one of my big priorities is how do I build a village? You know, if only for the free babysitting, but I mean, you very practically,

Lian (31:20)

Hmm.

Hmm it really isn't. For any of us actually. I mean that's the part that probably all of us are struggling with.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (31:49)

You know, how could a mother possibly raise a child without aunts and grandmothers and sisters around? It's fucking impossible as far as I can tell. You know, everyone I know whose mum just looks exhausted because they don't have the village to, yeah, it's not the, so I used to live in Africa, right? And like Ethiopia and you tidy your baby, you just give it to your sister and walk off for an hour. I mean, someone will give you their baby on a bus. You know, it's like this sort of trust in the village, you know, like I've had little kids put on my lap in the bus and I'm like, okay, I'll look after them for an hour.

Lian (31:53)

Yes.

Hmm.

Mmm.

hahahaha

Mark Walsh (32:18)

And, know, there's a different sense of it. I don't idealise our prehistory, but it was certainly there. This, we are impoverished when it comes to human connection and everything from empathy to hugs, to ritual, to dancing, to singing. How many times a week do you sing with a group of people? I mean, I've lived in cultures where that was just a daily norm, right? Or drumming was one we used to do in Ethiopia a lot. So, I mean, we've lost the village and...

Lian (32:24)

Mm.

Yes.

Yes, yeah, no, I completely agree. Yeah.

Mark Walsh (32:46)

You, can regain that in different ways and there's no simple answer how you do that. You know, there are some, I have a men's group that I run, I make an effort to maintain friendships. You know, I make cross generational connections. It's like, how, but it's hard, right? If I just knocked on the, there's an old people's home just around the corner from me, right? And I always walk by and there's a hundred year old man there. I know, cause he had a hundred written on his door when it was his birthday. And I was waved to him every day when I walked by, but there's literally an iron fence between me and him.

He's like locked indoors. And if I were to go to reception and be like, can I talk to that old bloke? They'd just be like, who are you? Like that'd be such a weird thing to do in our culture. So that's an elder in my literally a few hundred meters from here.

Lian (33:15)

Mmm.

Yeah, funny enough, it's, I've been really noticing this recently, slightly different, but it's speaking to the same thing where my daughter's doing the Duke in Edinburgh award and one of the parts of it is volunteering. And so she and her friend were looking at kind of, okay, we could, for example, go to old people's home and spend, my daughter's very, like, so she's like big ball of sunshine, she's gorgeous. And

Mark Walsh (33:39)

Mm.

Yep.

Sure, I'll go ahead.

Lian (33:52)

like oh I'd love to do that you know go and spend time with the older people and you know being in conversation with them so on and so forth and it's like wherever you look there are these restrictions oh you're not 16 so therefore we can't do this we're not insured we can't do this and it's just like oh my gosh the disconnection it's like there's a like almost legislated disconnection with our community.

Mark Walsh (34:02)

Yeah, yeah, it rules.

Yeah, part of the society we live in has this, what class are we ruled by? You know, the merchant class would be one answer, just to sort of economic class who have economic interests at heart rather than human interests. But another answer is the administrative class, where we have over-administrised our culture in many ways, you you can't just do what you want. And sometimes the rules come for good reasons, but ultimately, we all feel in this cage, I think.

Lian (34:29)

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (34:41)

You know, imagine many listeners feel, ah, it's restrictive. You've got to have a license to fish. mean, I'm just taking a river out of the, taking a fish out of the river. You know, I've a license, I've got a license for a dog. I've got to have checks and sometimes it's well-meaning. Like it's good that we have driving tests maybe, but you know, then you've got to have your MOT, then you've got to have this. And now we're in this like cage of modernity. It just feels so restrictive. So yeah, that's um,

Lian (34:41)

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mark Walsh (35:04)

the over socialisation Ted Kaczynski would call it. And it's definitely a part of the problem. There's a whole group of society who justify their existence by making more and more rules. The civil service of the British Empire was 2000 people. The entire British Empire was run by 2000 administrators. And now it's 2000 wouldn't even be one department of the civil service, right? It's clearly not really necessary.

Lian (35:12)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Wow!

Hmmmm

Yeah, funny enough, my husband is a non-executive director of one of the ambulance service regions. And so he was telling me, I think it's in the news now where they've just got rid of NHS England. So there's a body called NHS England. I know if you're aware of this. I wasn't. NHS England kind of take the budget from the government and then kind of almost like subcontract it out to the actual ambulance service and so on and so forth. But like it is

Mark Walsh (35:46)

that.

huh. Yeah.

Lian (36:03)

have this wrong, I'm not very good with numbers, but it's a lot of, it's like maybe like 9000 people or something like that. I I think it could be a lot of people. And then all of a sudden they're getting rid of those 9000 people and you're like, well the fact you could do that is interesting.

Mark Walsh (36:08)

Oh, sure, it's huge numbers. NHS is huge organisation. it's got a lot of middle management.

it's amazing. mean, Elon did this. I've got mixed feelings about Mr. Musk, but he did this in Twitter and other places, right? Like it's amazing how many of these people you can get rid of. My girlfriend works in the NGO space and they've just been slashed, but a lot of the stuff that was slashed was not necessarily, know, some of it was unfortunately very good programs that got cut, you know, digging wells in Mali or whatever, but others was just administrators and office workers and it's not always great. So, yeah, that's definitely part of it. so to complete our four things, second one is the village.

Lian (36:23)

Yes.

Yeah.

Mm. Yes,

keep going. Don't let me distract you.

Mark Walsh (36:48)

Third one, I'm on a mission now, you know, know for listeners, they'll be like, but what tell us the other two? Third one's eco regulation, right? Or eco nexus, eco connection. And that might, you know, I just walk outside every day. I do all my coaching calls outside. I go sit by the river. You can get pagan. Like I like to feed rose petals to the river, but you don't have to be that hippie. You can just kind of lie on the grass, go outside, look at the clouds.

Lian (37:02)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (37:11)

connect to the four elements and I encourage you know, D of E and stuff does that, right? I encourage young people to go outside and they like it. It's calming, it's regulating. Yeah, and the fourth one is Theo regulation. So it's some kind of connection to, on the surface level will be like purpose, like life purpose. There's a whole bunch of exercises I can take guys through .... My book's got a whole chapter on here's some things to do for life purpose. Like concretely, here's 10 exercises you can try this weekend, you know.

Lian (37:21)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (37:41)

Um, some of them are like, go for a walk. Others are like, you know, death meditation. They really look a big spectrum. Um, but we need some kind of spirituality as one of my sponsors in AA said years ago, said, Mark, you can have any higher power as long as it's not fucking you, mate. Okay. So you can make anything your God or gods or source or spirit, pick your word. As long as you got something. Cause we, as human beings, the idea of the secular materialist world, it just doesn't.

Lian (37:41)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (38:10)

really work. Most people can't stand it, frankly. So that's tricky in post modernity. Because it's like, well, we're left with the spiritual sweet shop, we could be spiritually bypassing, we could be being very shallow, our new age interpretations of things, or we just might be confused because our mates Hindu and our teachers Muslim and my mum was Christian. And what the hell do I do, you know, so that is a big, big question. And I think the challenge for all of us, not just for the boys, the boys are just

Lian (38:12)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Again, for all of us. Yeah.

Mark Walsh (38:40)

It's just necessary for them. You know, was necessary for me as a troubled, addicted ADHD young man with mental health issues, but now it's totally necessary. I was just ahead of the game. You know, I was like, you know, it's like hipster depression. I was into it before it cool, but now it's, now it's necessary. And all of us need this. Like, this is the meeting crisis. Like all of us are going, what the hell is going on? Surely there's more to life than filling out an Excel spreadsheet for some corporation.

Lian (38:43)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (39:09)

getting drunk at the weekend and buying tat from Ikea. Surely there's more to life. So that is a question for all of us, but I think it's a pressing question for young.

Lian (39:14)

Mmm.

Yes.

And I think, again, in some ways there's been, there is something wonderful in us not being part of these kind of, very rigid, you know, this is the religion we're born in and expected to stay in and that's it, you know, don't explore us. Yes, we do have that. And yet there's a definite

Mark Walsh (39:38)

We have freedom now, but we don't have clarity.

Lian (39:44)

kind of as a rejection of that, it's like, what do do instead? And thus far, the experiment is showing that most people don't find something instead. But again, that that is a necessary call. I think there's probably if we look at cultures across history, I think we would struggle to find one that has kind of, you know, been something that's lasted without that. Yes, exactly.

Mark Walsh (39:52)

Right. There's very few atheist cultures, almost none. don't last. there's has been attempts of it right back to the ancient Greeks or right up to the modern communists. Atheist cultures don't last more than a hundred years. And there's, it's just deep in us that we need something. And as you say, we have the advantage of, you can look at this in terms of like spiral dynamics or something like a developmental system. We have the advantage of not being forced into a fundamentalist mold.

Lian (40:14)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (40:34)

My mum became a Catholic nun for a bit before she met my dad, because that's just from an Irish family. That's the only option she had. You know, now she'd probably become a Buddhist now. That's all right. Yeah. Yeah. My dad was a man. You know, what can I say? But it's, um, yeah. So she didn't really have much choice. She had to drive 50 miles to the nearest Iyengar yoga class when she started yoga in the sixties. So now we have all this choice on the internet, podcasts, everything, but we lost in that choice. We're confused, always sort of shallow in it. Or there's no surrender in it.

Lian (40:40)

Wow!

Hmm.

Yes. Shall I? Yes.

Mark Walsh (41:04)

Like Islam means surrender, you know, and maybe too much surrender, I would say it's, I'm not sure Islam is a positive force in the modern world. Generally, though, there are many, of course, lovely Islamic people, including in my family. But there's a lot of surrender in that. What they're stronger on is they have a whole system. You know, they pray five times a day, they have Ramadan, it's a very strong system. Who's, what hippies do you know that have a system as strong as Islam?

Lian (41:19)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (41:28)

You know, in terms of like, don't eat pork or we get married this way and we, know, women dress this way and it's a strong system, even if it's not really congruent with Britain today.

Lian (41:28)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yeah, there's funny enough, I was talking to my children about this the other day and they were saying there was something they admired in that, that kind of routine for want of a better word of Islam. Yeah, and they were saying that there was like, and my son's been talking a lot about Ramadan at the moment, not that he's at all kind of thinking of converting, but just I think there was something intuitive in him that you could see there was something there.

Mark Walsh (41:52)

Structure.

get it. I respect it. I respect it. The discipline kids are really wanting some structure because they're just drowning in chaos. Now I would say it's too much structure there. That's a repeat. That's a retreat to fundamentalism. isn't, know, Islam is still stuck in the middle ages. Frankly, there's very few really reformed Islamic people. They do exist, but they haven't had a reformation. They haven't gone through the stages of reformation that Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism have.

Lian (42:09)

Hmm

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (42:30)

So I don't really think it's compatible with the West though, there's much to be admired. And then you also see the growth of pseudo religions. So people support their football team, like it was a religion or Marvel comics or woke woke is a pseudo religion. has priests, it has sacred words, it has sacred figures, know, like this is Jonathan Haidt and others have pointed this out. So in the absence of a true spirituality, we will either try and retreat to the past, which isn't really possible. You know, if I

Lian (42:37)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (43:00)

pretended to be Catholic like my parents, just become a sort of cosplaying as a Catholic, I'd be a pseudo Catholic. I could dress up, could go to church, but I wouldn't, I don't really think that Mary was a virgin. You know, archetypally, Jungian maybe, but I'm pretty sure she wasn't, you know?

Lian (43:07)

Mmm.

Hehehehehe

I'm to break.

Mark Walsh (43:21)

Because you got to believe some shit. mean, Mohammed, you know, was supposedly flew on a winged horse from Mecca to Jerusalem. You got to believe some nonsense if you're to be fundamentalist. It's just nonsense. Let's just call it what it is. Moses did not part the Red Sea. I'm sorry, Jewish mates. As a metaphor, as a Jungian, Peter, Soviet metaphor, maybe, but not as a reality. Let's get real. It's like the Renaissance never happened. So we are.

Lian (43:26)

you

Mark Walsh (43:48)

We are dirty moderns. are ruined by modernity. We can't really believe, you know, unless we just, you see this in the fundamentalist, they're like really trying hard to believe, but it's brittle. It's why Islam's got no sense of humour. It's why Scientologists are always suing people. It's so brittle because it's, it can't, it knows that it's bollocks.

Lian (43:53)

Mmm.

Mm.

Yeah,

it can't respond to the jabs. It's funny enough, you know, just as you're saying, there is such a, just an obviousness about it. My daughter was saying, like, so they actually believe that Mary was a virgin.

Mark Walsh (44:20)

Yes, is. People still do, but it's very difficult for your sister with a scientific, rational, modern, sorry, your daughter with a scientific, rational, modern mind to believe. So the challenge of our times is how do we create an integral or meta-modern religion? Now I'm not going to be the one to do it because I'd

Lian (44:38)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (44:39)

form a cult and I'd have like a whole bunch of concubines real quick. would, it'd be a lot of fun, but it wouldn't be, it would end badly, Lian. I'm not doing it, you know, it'd end badly. I'd have my feet washed every day and it would be worse than Osho. So, but somebody definitely needs to create a kind of modern religion. And there are people who are attempting to do that because the psycho technologies exist. We have access to psychedelics, to embodiment practices. You know, we understand the Jungian aspects now much more than before the mythological.

Lian (45:05)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (45:09)

aspects, you know, that is the challenge of our times. It's like, we going to destroy ourselves with demonic materialism and hedonism? Or are we going to retreat to sort of, you know, kind of, what's that feminist fantasy where all the women have red hats and they get controlled by the men and, we're going to retreat to the handmaid's tale or the Muslim version, right? Or third option to those two things I'd say are not desirable. We move forward.

Lian (45:18)

Mmm.

yeah, like the handmaiden's tale kind of, yeah.

Mark Walsh (45:40)

we move forward and we say, what does a spirituality of post-modernity of meta-modernity like now, I know, that isn't ridiculous, that your daughter wouldn't laugh at, that we could initiate boys into in a non-culti way, what would that look like? And that is the question.

Lian (45:40)

Mmm.

You

Mmm.

Yeah, yes. Gosh, so we've made, we've journeyed through.

Mark Walsh (46:03)

Okay, so a of tea, we just talked about the nihilistic death of modernity and the meaning crisis. There's all a bit much. And this is why we need a sense of humour. And by the way, the sense of humour, it's not a small thing. It's the test of if someone's retreated to fundamentalism or move forwards, right? Like the sense of humour is absolute. As the world burns, we need it. We need it. It's so important.

Lian (46:23)

Yes, that's a really, really good point.

Yes, no, I really agree with you there. So is there anything we've gone through the four kind of like reconnections needed? What do you feel before we close? Is there anything else that you feel is an important thing for us to talk about before we end this? Because I kind of feel like there is something so

Mark Walsh (46:37)

That's it!

Lian (46:52)

There's something powerful in even bringing these things into awareness that on its own allows things to happen. Yeah. It really is.

Mark Walsh (46:57)

Yes, big, just having the model is huge. Psychoactive, just having the model. I mean, the tetrarchic model is the simplest model I can find of, let's make it really simple of life. Buddhist-like life, Christian-like life, Pagan-like life, even sort of evolutionary Nietzscheans with no faith at all, atheists, know, in evolution like life. What sustains life? mean, essentially the modern world is a death cult. Okay. There's various elements.

Lian (47:07)

Hmm.

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (47:24)

death cult in consumer capitalism and woke in Islam in many aspects of what we're looking at. could say, you know, if you want to get conspiratorial is this death cult we're in, even if it's just saying that everything's dead, because it's all just stuff materialism. That's the basic scientific worldview, right?

The moment we open our eyes and are conscious in the morning, we understand that there's more than stuff or else what the hell is this?

You know, what the hell is this awareness I have, you know, that's not material. so the most simple version of this is what brings life. Like does being on your iPhone all day bring life? Does vaping bring life? Does porn bring life? I would say no. Right. And don't believe me, you know, tests I've tested does drug addiction bring life does being a sex addict bring life? I've thoroughly tested this. and you know, be gentle in your experiments. Please don't die doing them.

Lian (47:47)

Mmm.

Hehehehehe

Mark Walsh (48:14)

What brings life is the key thing. The best model I have for that as of yet, you know, with all my studies, we actually developed it in Ukraine because it was such an extreme situation that one of these will help just doing yoga practice, just praying, just going into the woods every day, you know, just doing ayahuasca once. Any of those will help. That's the good news. And there's a virtuous cycle once you start, but in Ukraine, needed all of them because it was such a hardcore situation there.

Lian (48:24)

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (48:44)

And it still is, but it's the necessity of those four. I think for most people, the good news is just start where you enjoy. Like for me, it was Aikido and then it became everything else, meditation and all these other studies. You know, for some young man, it might be weightlifting for your daughter. might be the Duke of Edinburgh servicing, you know, she might be service orientated and really get into the volunteering. Start where you enjoy and then it opens up from there. So, yeah, I think, I think we're going to make it.

Lian (48:53)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (49:11)

I think it's going to be fine, Lian. And if it's not, then we just go back to the Stone Age and we start again.

Lian (49:16)

One way it will be okay. Where can listeners find out more about you and your wonderful work and also your particular work around everything we've been talking about?

Mark Walsh (49:28)

Not on Tinder anymore. no, no. So sorry. where can they find me? for the young men's work, feral philosophy on YouTube is a good place to start. Just uploaded a two hour video on life purpose. There's all sorts of videos on weight training. That would be a good place to start for the young guys. For the embodiment work. If you're interested in embodiment and embodiment coaching, go to embodiment unlimited.com. there's free eBooks and coaching demos and things there.

Lian (49:46)

Hmm.

Mark Walsh (49:57)

bodymetallimit.com and the Ukraine work is sane Ukraine. they are the three things I do.

Lian (50:04)

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I've really appreciated this conversation again as a mother of a boy kind of like just entering that whole world that you've been talking about. I cannot tell you how, you know this already, but I just feel as though I want to say how needed it is and how much I appreciate what you're doing. Thank you.

Mark Walsh (50:23)

thanks. And you know what? I always listen to the mums because I think the mums just want the best for their kids. And every single mother of every boy I've taken to the gym bar none has always texted me the same day or the next day and said, thank you so much. And they say things like he stopped vaping or he stopped smoking weed or he dumped his druggy girlfriend or now he's applied for a job. And they tell me the specifics, right? I think I don't know what you've done with him and I probably wouldn't like it, but thank you. Right. Thank you.

Lian (50:40)

Mmm.

Mark Walsh (50:51)

And it's like, I trust the mums, trust the mums. Just leave it there, it's good place to end.

Lian (50:57)

Yeah, thank you so much. Pleasure.

Lian (50:58)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth…

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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