How to (and why) ‘microdose’ with reverence and ritual (transcript)

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Full show notes here.

Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Given microdosing is already known to have benefits such as reducing anxiety and stress and enhancing creativity, why might one want to introduce reverence and ritual? Well, this was the very question that Sara J. Sanderson asked me on today's episode. And in answer to that question, we dive deep into all kinds of things about the relationship we can create with a teacher plant.

why we might do so and the much deeper hidden benefits when we do create that conscious relationship with reference and ritual. If you are anywhere on the path of working with teacher plants in any way, I suspect you're going to find this a very interesting episode. Let's dive in.

Lian (00:52)

Hello, Sara, a huge warm welcome back to the show.

Sara Sanderson (00:58)

Hello, thank you for having me back so soon.

Lian (01:01)

Well I enjoyed the last one so much it was something that I wanted not only to happen again but potentially happen quite regularly so here we are and the the topic I believe was chosen by you and it felt like one that actually really felt timely and serving and it's

journeying into the kind of whys and wherefores of bringing reverence and ritual into microdosing. And that again is something as you know I'm really passionate about, it's really dear to my heart and isn't something that I'm seeing being spoken about very often. So yeah I'm really happy to get into that. I'm gonna hand over to you.

Sara Sanderson (01:54)

Thank you. Yes, it was my suggestion to explore this topic a little bit deeper. One of the reasons is because, as you know, I do struggle with ritual and I always sometimes it can feel like an extra thing to do. So in regards to microdosing, because it's already known that there are benefits.

to microdosing and I'm sure we can get into some of that. So we already know from the research that's out there that there are benefits to microdosing. So I suppose I'm just wanting to know what in addition or why do we need this focus on ritual? What is that bringing to microdosing?

Lian (02:47)

To answer the title of this show in one answer job done. I'm not going to make it that easy. So would you, and we can do this together, I'm not putting this all on you, but if we perhaps start with, as you're saying,

Sara Sanderson (02:47)

Basically.

Lian (03:04)

The benefits of microdosing are quite widely spoken about, widely known. Of course, they're usually coming from that context of microdosing without really any conscious or very much conscious ritual and reverence. Would you name some of the things you've heard people talk about when they're talking about the benefits of microdosing? Because I think if we've got a bit of a comparison, it gives us somewhere to jump off from.

Sara Sanderson (03:29)

Yeah, sure. So there's been lots of talk about how it is really beneficial for people's mental health. And you know, that's one of the big drivers of bringing it more mainstream and, you know, and into the sort of medical field, because of the benefits with reducing anxiety and stress and things like that. So it has a calming effect and there's also, we also know, you know, well, personally, I know of a lot of musicians that take it because again, it sort of opens the mind to creativity. So there's that aspect as well. So there's an aspect of health benefits and then there's the aspect of what it can give you in regards to, yeah, opening up to creativity and just new ways of thinking and seeing an insight, seeing more than what you already know. So those are some of the benefits that I'm aware of.

Lian (04:37)

Yes, really, really well summarised. And I wouldn't necessarily say that that's not so. You know, there's been studies to show that people genuinely do get those benefits. Of course, these things aren't, you know, binary. It's not that everyone has all of the benefits all of the time. And of course, there can be adverse effects too, as you well know and have experienced.

The deeper question for me and is something that I've been journeying with for many years and then more consciously, more directly over the last few years is, so if microdosing provides those benefits, why does it? What's happening? What's the mechanism?

And when we start to look at that, it starts to, the whole relationship we have to the thing in this instance, the thing being microdosing, and then if we're potentially talking, as you know, my main relationship in terms of a teacher plant is the mushroom. So if we're talking about relationship with mushroom, it starts to change immediately when we start to ask those questions, like what's actually going on there?

Why might it open me to be more creative? Why might it have this effect where I'm less anxious, less stressed? And for me, as soon as we start to turn our gaze in that direction, it allows us to relate to those things differently. And my sense is, in a way that is beginning to take us back into what I would consider a more natural relationship with them, certainly a more ancient relationship with them. And the reason I say that is, even that term microdosing is a modern term. And it's like, we've now discovered that we can now take psychedelics in these small amounts and they have these benefits and largely completely are unaware of or dismiss the fact that we modern Western humans did not invent this. We absolutely did not invent this. There are deep, deep, deep roots to all parts of this and the relationships within them that we are just scratching the surface of when we embark on this modern concept of microdosing.

Sara Sanderson (07:14)

I thought I was just, you know, take a capsule. It's got a list of ingredients, a list of benefits. You take it and that's that.

Lian (07:17)

Hehehehehe

I know you didn't think that sorry you might have once I know you don't now and yet you know we laugh but I would say that's probably you know maybe that's slightly over simplified but I would say you know if there's a spectrum of relationship people have to microdosing I'd say what you've just said is is fairly close to what the general relationship is would you agree?

Sara Sanderson (07:51)

Yes, I think, well, I know from other things that I take that if I know it's going to benefit me in a certain way that I don't really think about why is it helping me. As you know, I've got allergies. So on occasion I do have to take antihistamine, but I just know that that reduces the allergy, but I don't know how, why. I don't even have, not even asked.

Lian (08:15)

Hmm.

Sara Sanderson (08:20)

not even asked the question. So I know I was being a bit flippant there with what I was saying, but it's a similar thing. I, that, my goodness, I hadn't actually stopped to think, why does something work? Why does it have that effect? so it sounds so obvious, you know, hearing you, you say it, it sounds so obvious, a question. but I don't think that many people actually take the time to ask it.

Lian (08:26)

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yes and again really understandably so this is not at all me making that wrong. Again we are in a culture where we are being bombarded all the time with demands and noise and calls for our attention and stimulation. It is a ton of things to juggle and I'm not gonna blame anyone from thinking I can take this and it's going to give me some relief.

from dealing with all of this. You know, to then add another demand of I now need to be asking myself the question why I'm taking all this. You know, I'm not at all making any of that wrong. I'm just naming, like that's what's a play here, that we are limiting what's possible by limiting our relationship to, again, for me, it's not even really about microdosing, it's about the spirit we're working with.

But that's where I'm coming from when I'm starting to have this conversation. It's like if we pull all of this apart and look at what we're dealing with, we start to ask ourselves very different questions.

Sara Sanderson (09:55)

Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm hearing you loud and clear, but it just made me chuckle thinking that is such an obvious question. And I feel that in many areas, asking why just seems to have been removed from the table.

Lian (10:10)

Yes it really has. Again it's there's a we could probably do a whole episode literally on that. Why have we stopped asking why? And maybe we'll make a note to do that because there's a lot there's a lot I could say about that but I won't for the moment. So coming back more directly to your question it's like given we can microdose without going deeper.

and it can have these positive effects, why would we want to change the way that we microdove? Why would we want to bring in this idea of ritual? Why might we want to be in relationship with whichever teacher plant we're working with? Why might we want to approach that with reverence? Because as you say, if we can get benefits without doing that, why might we change what we're doing? That's really the question because most people who are...

already considering microdosing, already are microdosing, that's probably going to be somewhat the question on their minds. If someone's listening to this, they're probably coming from that place already and there's a reason why you might want to do something differently. And again, the reason I kind of took it slightly left field is in order for me to answer that question, we need to...

really acknowledge the elephant in the room here, which is the fact these are, as far as I'm concerned, conscious beings that we're working with.

Sara Sanderson (11:43)

Yes.

Lian (11:44)

incredible like the irony is we're taking them you could say in order to open our consciousness and yet dismissing these things as just at best medicine but often not even really considering like that what we're talking about here is we are entering a relationship with a being a spirit a conscious being who is

prepared to be in relationship with us and unless we are ready to even confront that, almost there's no point having this whole conversation because it all rests on are we prepared to acknowledge the elephant in the room and actually begin to have a relationship with it or not.

Sara Sanderson (12:28)

Yes. Something was coming up, but I don't want to necessarily take us off in a different direction. But what came up was, that is so interesting because I've read about the ways in which a lot of the research is being done is on sort of synthetic.

Lian (12:29)

can say more but i just want to hear if if there's anything coming up for you.

Sara Sanderson (12:51)

forms of psilocybin. So I was just sort of like, so what came up was, my goodness, if we don't have that relationship directly with the actual mushroom as a teacher, and we're creating something synthetically, then we're, yeah, we're at a crossroads here of going down the path of, okay, yeah, there are...

Like we said, there are benefits to taking it, but if we've gone down that route of making this synthetic version, then we've kind of severed the relationship.

Lian (13:31)

Yes, we may have gone. I do think there is such an intelligence built into all of this that...

Put simply, as you say, we could go on a whole detour here and it probably isn't the right time or place to do so. But I also do believe that whilst, yes, it seems as though the opportunity to create a relationship is almost gone, we've become so separated, there's no way back. And yet there is such a divine intelligence to this that probably there is no point where it's a dead end.

Sara Sanderson (14:08)

Hmm.

Lian (14:11)

So the, if we go on the idea that there is an openness to recognize there is a sentient being at the heart of this and regardless whether we are coming into relationship with that being in a, what we might call a macro dose, IE ceremony or a micro dose, smaller amounts.

Ultimately, it's still about having a relationship with this being. And if we are open to that, we can then start to go back to your very first question and answer what might be the reason given we could have these benefits by just literally, you know, chucking a capsule down our mouths every few days, what might be the reason to relate differently? And...

there's a there's a kind of I guess simple answer to that but there's also a kind of deep potentially lifelong way of answering that. So I'll attempt the first one and then the second one will kind of like at least start to I guess journey into but of course this is an individual relationship for everyone because it is a relationship. So at the at a simple level...

If we see that this is like saying...

What are the benefits of relationship anyway, any kind of relationship? Like what are the benefits of a relationship?

name some that occur to you and it could be a relationship with a dog, your husband, a tree, a neighbor. What are some of the benefits that occur to you?

Sara Sanderson (15:59)

The first word that comes to me is belonging. So the benefits are feeling connected, not being alone. There's something about being in relationship that has this reciprocal kind of flow to it. So it, this sort of giving and receiving, whether that's...

conversation, affection. So it just, it fundamentally feels part of who we are to be in relationship. I can't, I'm trying to think of what we're not in relationship to, whether consciously or not. Yeah, I don't, yeah. So the benefits really about fully,

Lian (16:42)

Mmm.

Sara Sanderson (16:53)

experiencing fully living.

Lian (16:56)

Mmm.

Yeah, how's that for a benefit that compares to reducing stress?

Sara Sanderson (17:01)

You

starting to see why I would yeah want to be in relationship with what I'm taking not just taking something with with no conscious awareness or intent of that relationship at all yeah again it my goodness you ask the questions and it's so simple

Lian (17:19)

Mmm.

Sara Sanderson (17:30)

and tangible and it's like, of course.

Lian (17:37)

Hmm. That's the I mean, firstly, that is the the beauty of questions. I was I mentioned on the show before I was very fortunate that I was brought up by a father who really believed in Socratic questioning, which is, you know, to a large extent what's unfolding in this conversation. And what we find when we are asking Socratic questions either to ourselves or to another is the.

What really is happening is we are midwifing this natural wisdom. It really is just a way of like bringing forth the wisdom that's already there. It's like, it's already known. I just needed that question in order to midwife it.

Sara Sanderson (18:20)

What a beautiful, yeah, beautiful way of explaining that. I'll be quoting that.

Lian (18:21)

it's hmm.

Yeah, there's a really wonderful and very true you can feel feel that that just is how it is. I love it too. The something that you mentioned as you were talking through the examples of relationships is the fact that we ultimately always are in relationship. It's really a question of whether we're conscious to that or not.

And of course, even if we microdose without being conscious of the relationship, there is still a relationship because we can't help that. But is the difference between a conscious relationship and then also a conscious and, for example, loving, appreciative, honouring relationship.

And the deeper we go with this, I think very naturally we start to realise like, when I think of relationships where I'm approaching it in that way, in a conscious way, in a loving way, in a gracious way, in a receptive way, I can feel how much more is available, how much more unfolds, how much more experience than if it is a transactional relationship, an unconscious relationship.

Sara Sanderson (19:45)

Yeah, just before you said transactional, that was the word that was very present for me. It's like without that conscious choosing of being in relationship, yeah, you're just left with this transactional relationship.

Lian (19:50)

Hmm.

Hmm, which is a relationship, but it certainly isn't the fullness of a possible relationship we could have with someone or something. So I feel, let me know if you want, if there's anything more you feel, again, this is one of those like lifelong living into the answers because by its very nature, a relationship is individual, it's unique. So we've talked more generally about the benefits of creating that relationship.

conscious relationship with a teacher plan. But it's also going to be individual. The relationship I will have will be different to the relationship you will have and therefore the particular gifts and challenges and attributes of that relationship will be individual. Which is why I said, you know, that's something that's going to take a lifetime to answer. So for now, does that answer your question and do you feel that we can go somewhere else from here?

Sara Sanderson (20:56)

Yes, it beautifully answers my question. I suppose...

sometimes I get stuck on what we actually mean by the by ritual in terms of the ways in which we could start that relationship. So it's all one and good, you know, most most of us obviously, most of us know how to be in relationship with another human being.

Lian (21:16)

Hmm.

To next time!

Sara Sanderson (21:32)

And many listening to this podcast will know how to be in relationship with non -human beings as well, you know, such as a tree, which is one of the beautiful invitations that you give as part of Be Mythical anyway, you know, as a starting point to learn more about ourselves and to live fully, again, being in these beautiful relationships.

So I suppose maybe I just have a sudden block sometimes when it's a new thing, you know, the starting point of that relationship because like you say, it's going to be unique and a relationship with another human, it kind of is a bit more obvious that you can have a direct conversation and then it sometimes gets a little bit more...

Lian (22:04)

Hmm.

Sara Sanderson (22:22)

confusing as to, well, how am I to be in relationship with the spirit of the mushroom?

Lian (22:29)

So if I first brought it out slightly, there's a couple of different things that occurred to me. One is I love that you brought the example of the tree here, which is also a great example of how we can move from having an unconscious transactional relationship to trees to a very conscious reverent relationship to trees in general, but also to a particular tree that we've been called to.

It's a really good example of how that can shift for each of us. This is always a possibility for us. And similarly, although it probably didn't seem like this big grand, like I'm entering a ritual now, there absolutely has been a way that you've created that relationship with a tree through ritual. Even if it's as simple as I go to my tree,

with this, you know, rough regularity and when I'm there I do this. Which is different perhaps than if we'd looked at Sara before she had that relationship or if we looked at someone else who didn't have a relationship. Would you agree?

Sara Sanderson (23:38)

Yes, yeah, I recognize that some overthinking can creep in to this. Yeah, it can be quite simple. It doesn't have to be complicated.

Lian (23:51)

Hmm, it can, but just to recognise it does exist still. It isn't nothing, but it also doesn't have to be really big and grand and elaborate and kind of handed down to us by someone else. You know, there is a whole spectrum that we can be talking about when we're talking about ritual and its relationship in relationship, which then also is having me think about...

ceremony which could also see almost a bit like the big brother or sister of ritual. They serve not completely the same purpose but similar purposes albeit for different occasions and so how we were talking about if we were to work with a teacher plant in a macro dose setting that typically as far as I'm concerned done right would be in a ceremony it provides the

the container, it provides the way of navigating that relationship in a way that we understand because we've been in relationship with these teacher plants for eons, generations, generations. These ceremonies have been created because they are created using more modern parlance, the set and setting with which to consciously enter into that relationship.

And so I'm not going to say, Rachel does the exact same thing when it comes to microdosing, but like, you know, roughly we could say that they're providing similar things. They're providing this like blueprint or this archetype or this pattern of these are ways that we can best, most consciously, most beneficially be in relationship.

when we're working with these teacher plants. And so again, ceremony works really well. It doesn't only work for working with teacher plants, just to be clear, but given this as a topic, these are ways that we contain that particular form of relating. And similarly, ritual can provide that when we're in relationship with different beings and also in different contexts. So again,

there's not this is not a binary as therefore you don't do a ceremony therefore you don't do a ritual here like there's definitely sort of some cross -transference here but i think that's sort of like a semi -helpful hold lightly way of seeing it so i think i've caveated at that enough and so again what we're talking about in terms of ritual and very specifically ritual when it comes to microdosing

It doesn't have to be something, you know, really elaborate. It doesn't have to be something where we're like following some script, but even having that notion of this serves me in creating a kind of relationship with a kind of being that in this lifetime at least, I haven't experienced.

And even by being open to working with ritual, we start to, it's a really interesting chicken and egg thing. It reminds me actually of a podcast you and I were talking about earlier with, is it Jessica Howard about working with spirits and deities. And in that, we will talk about similar things where as soon as you start to consciously open to a relationship with a spirit, deity, teacher plant,

non -human being of this kind. By that intention to open, we start to immediately be in conversation. There needs to be that willingness to open to it, which often will come in the form of ritual, but it's as soon as that happens, it becomes a two -way conversation. And then we'll start to be told, this is what's required, these offerings are required, this kind of...

prayer is required, these words are required, these gestures, this type of space and time is required, it informs each other. So there often is just like that kind of like even just the most subtle and this is why we provide suggestions when we're inviting people to work with any kind of spiritual deity actually. But again, if for example, in our current microdosing,

Crucible Liberty Quest, part of that will be providing a starting point for like these are rituals that you can begin with, but of course then you'll start to see what works for you. So really simple things like if you don't have an altar, create an altar. Go to the altar, make prayers at the altar, make offerings at the altar, set an intention, speak out an intention when you do ingest the mushrooms. These are like very simple ways of entering into a ritual.

they they are like almost like the they provide given given what we're talking about here as much you couldn't say for example if you're working with the mushroom you can see a mushroom but you can't really see the spirit it's a way of navigating that relationship it's a way of kind of like bringing it into some way of it being tangible that we can actually might be conscious of and work with.

Sara Sanderson (29:12)

Yeah, no, I love that and what's coming up for me is the word trust. And I feel that that's coming up because with being in this relationship and because it's not like a human relationship where you can hear the other person talking to you.

there is an element of trusting that you're being shown what to do. So to just be open and aware of things that are coming to you, whether that's through your dreams or just you suddenly just have a sense of making an offering or a sense of a song to sing or just, you know, it's trusting that and not...

Lian (29:40)

Mmm.

Sara Sanderson (29:57)

thinking all that's silly because I'm only thinking of that because of x y and z. I just feel that so often we can dismiss our own knowing and miss and start to miss the relationship forming.

Lian (30:04)

Mmm.

Absolutely. Again, in a culture where we're so bereft of understanding and valuing that which is an rational, logical, known.

Like this, everything we're talking about here is a kind of lost art, you could say, is a heritage, is a birthright that I absolutely think we can reclaim. But it's something that our culture, it's not just we've lost it, we've forgotten that we've lost it.

Sara Sanderson (30:49)

Yes. Yeah. That's brilliantly put that we've forgotten. We've forgotten that we've even lost it. Yeah. Yeah.

Lian (30:56)

So it's an extra challenge because first we need to remember before we can even find it again. But again, the great news is, it's all here for us. As soon as we start to even slightly open, what I've seen is going back to what you said earlier, we see that we belong, we see that we're not alone. We have so many allies waiting for us to just turn our attention in their direction.

That's for me, the like the true magic that we're talking about here. Which going back to what you were saying about that conversation, it's not a conversation that typically plays out in the way that we typically know to have conversations with, say for example, another human being. What I've just seen over and over again and is probably one of the parts of...

doing the work that I do that delights me the most is yes, at the kind of earlier stages of guiding someone into this kind of work, into these kinds of relationships, yes I may well need to directly say, you know, it's an invitation, it's not a demand, but it's like, you know, do this as some of the examples I gave early and I create the altar, make offering, so on and so forth, but really again,

all that is is a is an opening of a door. Like once you are ready to walk through that door you won't need me telling you to go do this go that you will create that relationship and whoever that teacher is whoever that being is will speak to you in a way that you'll understand but going back to what you've said there is definitely

an art, a skill in understanding that and really again honoring it, taking it seriously, perhaps taking it more seriously than you do anything else that's coming into your awareness. Which actually goes back to, I know you've not listened to it yet, the podcast I did on Tuesday, which will be out by the time this one goes out about the Lindworm, the folktale of the Lindworm.

And in that there's, spoiler alert, I'm gonna say a couple of little things that are in that. There's this archetypal figure of the wise woman that crops up twice in the story, or certainly the telling of the story, it doesn't always. And part of the very important lesson of her appearance in that folk tale is that,

Sara Sanderson (33:10)

No!

Lian (33:30)

hearing that going to receive that wisdom that comes outside of the known realms comes outside of logic is it's it's going to get that it's going to say you know I'm here I'm ready I'm ready to receive it then it's the actually knowing it's important to act upon.

Fully, wholly is that important and it's all parts of it. In fact, in some ways, and when you hear this, you'll hear, in some ways, it's even more important that you follow it fully and wholly than it's better if you're not going to do that, don't do it at all.

Sara Sanderson (34:11)

Wow.

Lian (34:12)

that that's a really important message. I don't think I actually, because there was so much in that one, I don't think I really fully illuminated that. It's obvious, really, if you look between the lines of the tale, but that's a really important message in it, which again, this isn't something if we're going to be in these kind of relationships, the, the, the wisdom we have is so potent, literally life changing. And I don't say that to you.

you know, make it scary or, you know, like, my God, you know, beware of not, but it's like, is that important? Going back to the two words that I was using at the beginning of the show, reference and rich ritual. That's why the reference is needed.

Sara Sanderson (35:01)

Yes, what's coming up for me hearing that, it's really sort of struck me to the core is...

the spirit of the, whatever it is, the teacher plant, potentially is going to reveal things that need your attention. And if you're not prepared to then honor that and take whatever action is required, then yeah, like you say, it's not to...

to scare but it's

that you know, to open something up and then not be prepared to face whatever that is and move with it and do what needs to be done, yeah, isn't really the way to go. It's like if you're gonna embark on this and you're going to therefore be shown whatever it is you're ready to be shown, then yeah.

Lian (36:08)

Hmm.

Sara Sanderson (36:08)

be ready to act on it. So what I'm hearing is, yes, the mushroom has all of the benefits that we're being made aware of, and it can bring something into your awareness, you know, these, that...

your that's part of your soul part of your soul path really part of you coming into your fullness into union. however you want to describe it so as you say It's the opportunity to fully live. live. live. live. now. so live. it's making It's making me realise that those other benefits, are they're like they're like side effects, you know what you see on tablets what the side effects are.

Lian (36:47)

Yeah!

Sara Sanderson (36:55)

You're not You're not taking it for the side effects, you're taking it for this other this other huge opportunity. Oh my goodness.

Lian (37:01)

I love that. I love that so much. I love that. You've also, there was, I know that we're coming up on time and there was something I felt we really do need to include in this conversation. What you've just said leads really beautifully to this as a place of closing. And I'm going to share anonymously a question I had from one of the current people journeying in Liberty Quest with us and paraphrasing it was something like what's the point of doing all of this other work that I'm doing you know for example shamanic healings you know all that are working with tarot working in guidance sessions. She also has worked with us on and off one -to -one for a long time in mythical. What's the point of doing all of this, if I could for example just microdose? Why don't I just do that? And that question is actually such a good one because it very clearly illuminates that all of this really only makes sense if, and this goes back to our previous episode, which I really recommend is worth listening to if someone hasn't after this, which is for me personally, I'm not saying that everyone that microdoses needs to decide this for themselves, but I would invite someone to.

Like what is the point of all of this? What is the point of all of this? For me personally, it is to live out that myth that we've come for in this lifetime. To heal, to become whole, to experience union. And when we put that as the context, it changes.

Pretty much every decision we're going to make is likely to be in alignment with that. That's the reason to do anything, including microdosing, which then means what we experience through microdosing is directly in relationship to that path we're on, that path of union, that path of individuation. It's all in service of that.

And so if someone isn't consciously on that path, could they, as you say, get the side effects of vicar dosing? Yes. But when will you look at what's truly on offer and available to us in these lifetimes, which working with teacher plants isn't aligned for any, any of everyone. It really is not. But for those of us that it is in that context, my goodness, like what a gift.

What a gift.

Sara Sanderson (39:53)

Yeah, yeah, this has been so I'm so excited. It's been so illuminating to really have that sort of click into place that That's the reason for

Lian (39:57)

Heheheheh

If this episode was only for you to have that moment it was so worth it Sara. I can see now why you said you might be a bit like devil's advocate and I love it.

Sara Sanderson (40:17)

I'm sorry.

Lian (40:24)

So anything that you feel would be helpful to either ask or say before we close.

Sara Sanderson (40:32)

I suppose it might be too big, but I wonder if you could just say a little bit more on that aspect of how the mushroom isn't necessarily replacing...

I'm trying to think of the best way of saying it. So going back to what you were sharing just then about why, you know, why do the great work if I can just take the mushroom? Because the mushroom, the teacher or you know, the teacher, if the teacher plant has got all the answers, then then that's it then isn't it? I just need to.

Lian (41:15)

yes, I realised actually there was something I left unsaid that is really important, which is why I thought of the thing I said and I didn't tie it back up to why I thought of it in relationship to what you just said. So going back to, I think I'm going to answer this question, but slightly around the houses. So going back to what you said previously where it's like, well, if you're going to be in relationship to a teacher plant, but you're not then willing or able to act on what you've been shown, perhaps it's not the right choice to be in relationship to it, which is what made me think of what I was saying about the great work, because all of this is part of the fabric of doing the work. To a large extent, not that there can't ever be any like almost like direct healing, let's say, that happens.

through working with a teacher plant, whether that's in a ceremony or in a microdosing setting, like sometimes we can have like very visceral, almost like immediate changes that happen, that happen at a very deep level and it's happened. There isn't anything almost more for us to do. But I would say that's on the rarer side. Most of what we experience when we're working with teacher plants in either setting, macro or micro, is actually illuminating, allowing us to see, feel, experience things that are then for us to go away and work with. To go away and act on, to go away and integrate, to go away and heal potentially using a different method.

These are again going back to at the more sort of ancient roots of these relationships. It wasn't that we would, for example, go sit in a ceremony with a teacher plant and do that once a quarter and then no do no other sort of ceremony, ritual, vision quest.

Sara Sanderson (43:02)

Mm. Mm.

Lian (43:25)

you know, relationship with other beings are important. Like, of course, all of this will be happening all of the time. It's all part of the weave, all part of the fabric of fully living. But again, particularly in this modern culture, we actually are bereft of so much of that. So there's even more reason if we are going to work with these very, very potent, like incredibly potent teachers.

There is, I wrote an article about this recently, which we must include in the show notes. There is a like, to be honest, we really could do with sort of like going on the baby steps first of even understanding how to be in relationship, how to learn. Because so much more is required of us than just like, we're not sitting in a classroom with a teacher plant at the front and all we've got to do is scribble down notes.

That's not what being in the relationship is about. It's about doing the work.

Sara Sanderson (44:21)

Yeah, yeah. And so easily we can just put things in like different boxes for want of a better term. But really there's such a weaving when I think about the ways of indigenous cultures, it's things are just all weaved together the way that the...

Lian (44:42)

Mm -hmm.

Sara Sanderson (44:45)

food is collected, the way it's cooked, the way that the community responds to each other. Just everything just seems to be almost like a this beautiful flow of dance and we seem to in this modern culture of kind of isolated different different things.

Lian (45:03)

hmm yes something's just come up that i think is such a great example of this that it is almost too much for our modern minds to quite get our heads around but is a good one for us to like be with and let it confuse us in the in the the wirakuta the indigenous shamans that my british shamanic lineage is kind of like intertwined with.

They work with, in their language, they call it the hickory, we would call it peyote. That's the teacher plant. But the hickory is seen to share the same spirit with the corn, which is one of their primary food sources. So same spirit corn that they eat as part of their staple diet. The hickory, which is their absolute like,

teacher plant doesn't even do it justice. And the blue deer, which is seen as this, again, I can't even quite name what the deer represents, but you know, at the very basic level, it's the animal, the deer, which is also a food source, but it's also a sacred animal. All three are the same spirit.

So talk about interwoven.

Sara Sanderson (46:27)

Yeah

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Something else has come up, but I'm not gonna take us on it.

Lian (46:37)

Well, maybe it's one that we need to cut. There was so much more here than I was anticipating. Maybe we come back and do a part two on this. In fact, if anyone's listening and you have questions about any of this, please do let us know via email at team@BMeythical.com. Does that sound right, Sara? Or in our Facebook group, which is Facebook.com/group/BeMythicalCommunity.

and we'd be more than happy to come back and do a part two on this and include your questions. But for now, Sara, sorry, go on, go on.

Sara Sanderson (47:13)

Yes, well, well, well, just members of UNIO, please, please, please share your questions, because it'd be really good to have a conversation in there, which if listeners don't know, I'm sure you've said in the intro that UNIO is the academy of all academies, magic school. But yeah.

Lian (47:16)

Of course, yes, yes.

Sara Sanderson (47:39)

Would you mind just saying a little bit more of that just to close about Unio?

Lian (47:41)

Hmm, sure. And in some ways this works so beautifully. I feel so, not in some ways, in all ways, it works so beautifully. But it's like one of the things that I keep marveling at the way that technology can so support us in these relationships that we've now got UNIO, which is both a community, the academy, the magic school, a place to train.

is all of these things. And then we have these individual crucibles that are kind of part of it, but a bit like if you went to a magic school like Hogwarts, you could then elect to take certain, you know, you could learn potions over here with a certain master or mistress. And so Liberty Quest is like that in that Liberty Quest is a kind of like hall that's off the main hall of Unio in which we directly work.

with the mushroom in the ways that we're talking about. And they work really well together because Liberty Quest is all the things we've just spoken about, whereas Unio provides that ongoing doing the work together in community. It is everything we need to be in that conscious exploration of like what's hidden, what's been fragmented, what's been lost. How do I bring this back into the hole?

And again, doing that in community, which is, you know, is certainly not the community that is our birthright, but at least there's a step towards that. And over and over again, I see that's essential. So it's for me being able to have those two aspects, the part of that ongoing community that allows us to do the work, stay in the work for as long as we want to need and then.

going off on the shorter quests, so for example Liberty Quest at the moment is eight weeks to work directly with a particular spirit in this case and then come back into Unio to continue working with what we were shown.

and I probably would have said the URL in the intro but if you're looking, if you'd like the links for both of those it's bemythical.com/unio and the next Liberty Quest I think will be happening maybe in September and you can register your interest for that and that's at bemythical.com/libertyquest.

Wonderful, thank you so much Sara. Wonderful questions as ever and this has been a real delight.

Sara Sanderson (50:20)

Thank you for having me. Yeah, I've loved it. I've learned so much. Lots of little light bulb moments and some big ones. Yeah, thank you.

Lian (50:24)

Good. And it just before we go, what I do want to say, because I feel as though it's important to recognise we wouldn't even be having this conversation if it wasn't for my own teacher, which is the mushroom. I wouldn't know any of what I'm saying here. I wouldn't be probably where I am in terms of my life and my work.

I certainly wouldn't be in a position to teach anything I've been talking about here without my teacher, the mushroom. So before we go, it would be absolutely remiss of me not to really give my thanks and my blessings to the mushroom.

Sara Sanderson (51:10)

Hmm. Reverence right there. Thank you, Lian. Thank you.

Lian (51:15)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth...

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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