Neurodivergent parenting: How to journey into self-discovery, acceptance & ancestral healing - Jessica DiRuzza (transcript)

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Episode Transcript:

Lian (00:00)

Neurodivergence isn't often spoken about as an invitation into a journey of acceptance, self -discovery, individuation, and yet it absolutely can be, particularly for those of us that are also parents of neurodivergent children. And it was this that I spoke to depth psychologist and astrologist Jessica DiRuzza about in this episode. It was actually something

that we recorded very spontaneously. We'd intended to talk about something completely different. And I'm so glad we felt that nudge to talk about this topic, but because it turned into something so moving, thought provoking and rich. I think you are going to love this if you're neurodivergent yourself or indeed if your children are neurodivergent or if you just have this deep calling.

to devote to honouring the wild soul of yourself or your child. Let's dive in...

Lian (01:05)

Hello Jessica, a huge warm welcome to the show.

Jessica (01:11)

Leanne, thank you so much. I'm so touched to be here with you today. It's a true honour.

Lian (01:17)

my goodness. Well, as we as we discovered almost before we'd even spoken, we're something of kind of kindred spirits. And yes, I have no idea what's going to unfold. I just feel really, really happy that we're here connecting and we'd intended to record on a completely well, who knows, it may turn out not to be a completely separate topic. It may well weave in as well.

But that was our intention to record a different topic, which my hope is we'll come back and do because I would really like to talk about that. But we ended up sharing our own experiences around, I guess, our journey with autism and all the different experiences and realisations and challenges that have unfolded around that. And we were kind of like,

only moments in both sort of like we're looking at each other with tears in our eyes and just realised like, perhaps, perhaps this is the conversation to have. This is the energy to honour. So that's what we'll do. And I'll perhaps start with something you said that for me was like, that's, that's a conversation I don't think I've really had on the show before. You said something about

when we start to have that realisation about our own neurodivergence, our own autism, and then start to realise that kind of the way that is flowing into our children, our children's children, and then back up our lineage, that there is, there's a lot there. There's a lot there. There's, there's, you know, it brings in notions of ancestral healing.

and ways that we really need to have a look at the places that we had experiences that perhaps if we don't attend to are going to then pass on to our children. that, you know, the moment you even said the word lineage, I was just like, this is a really, really important conversation. And not even from a, I don't mean from a, there is a probably a kind

Jessica (03:31)

Hmm.

Lian (03:35)

the importance to it, but almost like just emotionally it feels important is very much in my heart. So I'd love to begin there. What were you touching into when you spoke about

Jessica (03:50)

I think what I've woken up to in waking up to being autistic is one of my soul's deepest callings or dharma this lifetime is to heal the ancestral lineage both backwards and forwards through how I embrace and respond to waking up to being autistic.

my ancestors are autistic but didn't know it and therefore I didn't know it until I had my daughter and she turned two and a half. And when it was vividly apparent that she is autistic, within 72 hours of getting that confirmation, I realised I was and it is

probably the greatest spiritual awakening I've gone through in my life and probably the one that has mattered the most because of the criticality of being responsible for this soul that I gave birth to and recognising that the greatest thing I could offer her is to claim within myself, as you said, to go first and saying, I'm autistic, I'm proud of it, I'm out

and I'm gonna get all the support that I need to take care of myself so that she can have the support that she needs to take care of herself. And to be able to, in my lineage, and I think this connects into the collective right now, the human species, is be the first generation that doesn't have to mask and can truly live in unconditional love and acceptance.

for who she is because my ancestors suffer from mental illness and alcoholism and all kinds of issues that come with not being supported around their neurodivergence. And so I think the greatest task for me is to transmute that within myself and provide an environment for my daughter.

to get to do it differently.

Lian (06:19)

Mmm.

Yes. What you said there about the collective, it reminded me, yet again, which is probably something I'm shown multiple times every day, is that recognition that what's most personal is most universal, but we need to start with the personal. We often, particularly those of us

have come here with a sense of calling, we can jump into like, I need to go fix the collective. There's something going wrong out there. I need to go fix it and bypass what's actually here for us to do. the, the other thing that really stood out as you were talking is, as you say, even for my lineage, there's so much there in terms of addictions and mental health problems.

And I remember a show I did a couple of years ago with Lucy Pearce, author and publisher and another autistic woman. And in that conversation, we were talking about autistic people being a bit like the canary in the coal mine in that really the way that we are living in this modern culture doesn't actually work well for anyone. Hence, you know, mental health problems and addictions are rife in any

you know, section of the population. However, it is the particular kind of openness, sensitivities, and then the need to mask that makes autistic people and perhaps neurodivergent people more, more widely, more, more affected, let's say, by the way that we're living. And so it's

we're going first in that way, but then also we have that opportunity to go first, going back to like my own personal sense of like, I need to go first. We can do that, do that work to what's needed for us to be in this world and really allow ourselves to be ourselves. What's required? What does that require of us? What does that require us receive from people around us?

And my goodness, there's just so much there, but let's perhaps begin, if you will, with a little bit of your own story, going back to, as you were saying, for many of us, and certainly the truth for me, I lived most of my life not knowing I was autistic. My father was clearly autistic in hindsight, and we kind of knew he was a bit, we used to sort of

chuckle at his ways, but didn't at all know he was autistic. So I grew up just thinking, the way I am, mean, I've thought of acceptance and less of a need to mask. But so for me, it sort of hit later. wasn't until really I was in a secondary school that I really understood like, in order to be accepted, I need to be different.

And that's been a real journey, know, like learning to mask, learning to unmask. But I'd love to hear your story. How did this all unfold for

Jessica (09:51)

Yeah. mean, I knew, I mean, from my first memory, I always love this, this experiment of time traveling back, like, can we remember the first moment we were conscious of ourselves? And when I go back to that moment, I knew immediately that I was different and something different was going on and something different was going on than what I was being told. That was clear from the get -go. And at home,

I was raised by my mother and my grandmother. My father left pretty much from the beginning of my life. And at home, it was okay to be autistic. It was not called that. We did not know that. Clearly, my mother and my grandmother are autistic. I come from a long maternal lineage of being autistic. So at home, I didn't have to mask. And all of my intuitive and psychic

and imaginal and magical gifts were celebrated and were the center of the topic of conversation. We would spend most of our time just talking about the mysteries of life. But the second I stepped out of our house, it was expected that I do not in any way show that I am autistic, especially in the ways where I needed support.

my anxiety or my need for a lot of sensory things. I'm a highly sensitive being as so many of us are. I wasn't allowed to ask for help. No one was allowed to know that I was suffering, that I was in pain. I had to be love and light and goodness for my family and for the world. I wasn't essentially allowed to suffer or need anything. And so my masking

Lian (11:18)

Mmmmm

Hmm.

Jessica (11:48)

first started with my own self and thinking that I could only be in my gifts and I could only use those gifts for the service of everybody else. So I never learned how to take care of myself. I never learned how to be with myself. I never learned how to turn the gifts and use them first for me before pouring them out endlessly to everyone around me. As I got older, the incongruence and disharmony of the way that my mother and my grandmother

talked about living, including spirituality, reincarnation, reiki, energy work. We were open to all of these things, but their embodiment of living them was not in alignment with our supposed principles and our worldview and our ideologies about being human. And that caused me tremendous agony because there was a lack of ethics. There was a lack of integrity. And I would challenge that. And I challenged it so hard.

Lian (12:42)

Hmm.

Jessica (12:47)

to the point that we no longer are able to be in relationship with one another because there ended up being no accountability. So that bypassing that you mentioned before of let's focus on the outer world, but not a let's actually tend to what's going on here inside of our own home, within our own family. And I went out into the world, I became a professional astrologer, I became a psychotherapist.

And I've been doing that for over 15 years and I still didn't know that I was autistic until the birth of my daughter, Lucy. And it wasn't until she turned two and a half that it was, as I said, vividly apparent that she's neurodivergent, that I then finally got to come home to myself and say, there we go. And it was like an un -cramping of my consciousness and I could finally relax.

and just let it all flow out without so much anxiety and distortion and people pleasing, ultimately? Yeah, it's kind of a long scoping answer, but

Lian (13:56)

Mmm.

not, yeah, long scoping in a very good way. My goodness, there's so, so, so much there. I was recalling something you were saying, I'm just going to be paraphrasing, just before we began recording. And you were saying something like,

Jessica (14:04)

Hahaha!

Lian (14:26)

kind of looking at the, how can I put it? Like what we're doing now, parenting in a different way that is as to the best of our ability, like fully accepting of autism and the differences and the challenges and the needs, both for ourself and then for our children. And that's a real kind of stepping into the unknown.

It's like, like, wow, the, guess, social conditioning and agreements that we're going to do things a certain way, and this is okay, and this isn't, and you really going to allow that? It brings us into awareness of all of these experiences that we perhaps weren't really understanding that we were taking on when we took on that work, if that makes sense. And

Jessica (15:24)

Yes.

Lian (15:27)

when you when you there's something about the way you said it, you still say like, wow, the power of that, you know, like what that actually means, we don't know what it means. Like, it's because it's not been done in our, you know, certainly in our time and space, it's not been done. This is really probably the first generation that this is happening with, we don't know what this is going to unfold into.

because we've had the experiences of the masked version of it, the people pleasing version of it. It's OK for this part of me to be celebrated, but this part needs to be absolutely hidden because it's certainly not OK. I would love for you to share a bit more about what you're already seeing. Like, what is the power of that? What is that allowing to unfold that you've seen already?

Jessica (16:21)

my goodness, thank you for that. I think for me, ideologically going into parenting, I knew my deepest commitment was to the evolution of consciousness and creating a safe and sacred space for the soul to come in and feel truly free through unconditional love and acceptance to be itself, whatever the expression and manifestation of that was, even if that goes against

me, my husband, or society. Where the rubber hits the road is because I, we haven't conditioned my daughter to mask in any way. She presents as more autistic than I ever have. So what I mean by that is I have in no way blocked any of her stims. So we have the hand flapping, we have the vocal play. We have

Lian (17:09)

Hmm.

Jessica (17:20)

the Ecolalia where she repeats sounds and words harmonically over and over again, where the pure joyful expression of the moment overtakes her being and she becomes a channel of the emotion, of the joy, to the point where when we're out in the world socially, everybody looks at her because she hasn't learned to edit or filter

the expression of that enthusiasm. And she, I believe, she's three and a half now, doesn't have any awareness that she's autistic or different, but I also don't think she has any sense that she needs to be different in any way for love, safety, or acceptance. And because of that, she

Lian (18:18)

Mmm.

Jessica (18:20)

not changed who she is, how she came into this world, to belong. And that makes her stand out in contrast even more so. And the older she gets, actually the more apparent it is, because the other children around her have already shaped and molded themselves to make their parents happy, to please them, to be accepted. And she

And so it makes her, and I mean this in the best way, seem odd because there's a freedom in her that already at the age of three, most of the other children don't have.

And that is a humbling experience as a parent for me to walk through the world and have everybody look at us, not get it. And for me to not justify, defend, hide, make her stop to make anybody else feel comfortable. The difference between the ideology and the lived practice of that is I am constantly checking myself around.

things that might activate or trigger me and go, wow, the only reason that triggers me was because when I was that age, I had to hide those things. And now, instead of stopping it in my child, I'm gonna go home and cry about it. I'm gonna take that to therapy and process it so that I don't, out of my own selfish reaction, try and control her.

Lian (19:59)

Mmm.

Jessica (20:01)

So that's where a lot of the like spiritual, emotional, psychological reprogramming and wiring of the lineage is, is me having to do a lot of grief work around my God, that was stopped in me or that was changed in me out of control, out of fear. And I'm choosing not to do that. But I now have to go deal with all the ways that makes me feel.

Lian (20:30)

My goodness, thank you for sharing that with such honesty and such generosity. I almost never do this unless I'm recording more of a kind of like teaching style episode, but I feel like I want to take a moment right now to invite listeners to really check in with what

What you shared is bringing up for them.

Jessica (21:01)

I thought that... Yeah.

Lian (21:04)

I was really feeling, you know, everything you're talking about, this is true, actually, no matter, you know, no matter who we are, whether our child is autistic, we're autistic, like this is again, this is like Canary in the Coal Mine, but this is what we're collectively in. And what you're talking about there is really something that as parents, if we are, if we are honestly,

doing this work, if we're kind of on our soul path, this is the kind of thing that we need to be aware of, looking at, noticing when it's coming up in us, whether that be with our own children or listening to a story like that. What's that bringing

Jessica (21:50)

It's such a deep soul tending to be able to be honest with ourselves. It takes so much courage and strength to be honest about what's coming up and then to turn towards it with love and care and compassion and say, there's something here that's needing attention. I'm triggered or I'm hurting or I feel scared. That just shows me

there's something here that needs loving attention. And it's my responsibility as the parent or as the adult to do that, to not make it about my child, to not take it personally, but also to not try and extinguish the thing in my child that makes me feel discomfort. And I think if you want to talk about the root of abuse in our society, it's right there. They say that a child's first bully is their parent.

Lian (22:35)

Mmm.

Jessica (22:46)

And if I want to live in a world where we don't have an abuse of power anymore, then that, as we were talking about, starts with me being committed to not being my child's first bully by making them compliant, shaming them, controlling them, and instead a radical accountability of, no, that's for me to deal with. That has nothing to do with her.

Lian (23:15)

Mm, yes, yes, yes. This is, this is brought up for me something that I, again, I think partly because of the difference in my childhood experience, has me think this and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this both as an adult in your own experience, but also as a parent. So as I said, my

Because I was raised, it was a single parent family, so my father raised me and as I say, he was so clearly autistic, although I think we had that kind of old rain man stereotype, so we just didn't know. And he'd, I think very much had freed himself from so much of the conditioning of his childhood. So he was living like exceptionally free.

And so I had so much freedom acceptance to be myself, which was wonderful in so many ways, apart from there was a point where...

I was kind of like in, you know, society and realizing like, this isn't the same as what I'm used to at home is the kind of the almost the opposite of what you'd experienced, where suddenly it's just like, there's a difference. And I don't really know what it is. I just know that what I'm doing and being and saying isn't okay. It's really not okay. And so it was for me, not that I was

told or shown or modelled how to mask, it was a survival strategy. It was like, I've no idea how to be accepted. I mean, I was so badly bullied physically too, that it was kind of like, I need to make this stop. What do I need to do to make this stop? And so I kind of very much belatedly learned how to mask.

And it's like that's something that I've now spent, you know, the last however many years, initially less consciously and then more so recently is like consciously unlearning that, but also being brought very present to, I guess the price to pay, like what that then brings me into contact instead. There was an experience I had a couple of years ago and...

It was a really interesting moment. I was, I was actually brought it to my therapist where I was realizing how I was becoming less and less available for like what you might call small talk, which is something I've kind of like forced myself to learn to do in order to fit in, but is like excruciating, like, like just absolutely excruciating for me to do. And

I'd had this experience with extended family where I was just like, I just don't feel that it's right for me anymore to force myself to do that. And then I'm so if I'm not going to force myself to do that, I need to like be with the impact of that not doing that. And it was one of those like rule, you know, you have those moments when you're working with, say, a therapist where you just have that like, my goodness, there's so much more here. And that that simple conversation around

that whole kind of scene really brought me present to like, okay, I need to go so carefully with this, untangling the ways that I've been like innocently complicit in that kind of like shaming myself because I don't want to have the impacts of just being myself. So now if I want to be myself, I need what that's going to bring in, what that's going to require of me. So.

It's a very long -winded way of sharing kind of like what I'm going to ask you, which is firstly your own experiences of that as an adult, but also one of the things that I contemplate as a parent of an autistic child is them having similar experiences themselves, as in because of the acceptance they've had at home, there is a point where, and that point has arrived in many ways already,

my children are older than yours, where it's like they're meeting a similar experience as I met.

Jessica (27:54)

Hmm. What's it like, if I may ask, what's it like for you to see them meet a similar experience as you?

Lian (28:15)

It was actually...

It's funny because I was talking about this, there was a memory that's just come to mind and it, I'd actually forgotten it and I was talking to one of my children about this, only this week, funnily enough. And it was one of my children having this realisation of, I feel like I'm really different and that's why I'm being treated the way I'm being treated.

after having this almighty meltdown and we were sitting together, like heart to heart, face to face. And it was hearing that that made me think like, I didn't know at that time, like it is autism. I just knew it's time to like really look up, like there is a difference. It isn't just the difference, like we're all unique and different where I'd already been in that kind of, know, like, yes, let's celebrate the differences.

This is like a different level of difference and I need to like really now meet this properly. And it was that actually that started this whole journey, that moment.

Jessica (29:32)

Hmm. I feel the sacred power in that. And the immense raw challenge of that.

Lian (29:46)

I think, I don't think there's much, much else that really has the power to like move, move you onto a whole other path than seeing your child's pain.

Jessica (30:04)

I think that what you offered your children in that moment by feeling into what that has been like for you, I know for me, that's the greatest thing that my mother could have ever given me was to join me in that and to just allow that to be the truth instead of trying to, it's okay, we're different, different is okay.

Yeah, we're different, you know? And it's like, please, can we just sit in some of the agony together of, yeah, the bullying, the misunderstanding, the sometimes social rejection, the mockery. There is a violence that we encounter that is real. And

I just think when somebody in our life who loves us can just sit in that with us, there's something in just that that can be incredibly healing and empowering because again, we're not trying to change the situation. We're deeply acknowledging and saying, yeah, this is a very real part of being autistic. I know what that's like.

Lian (31:28)

Hmm

Jessica (31:31)

And we can strategise around it together. And masking is always an option for protection and safety, which comes first. But I already see the way that my daughter is going to struggle socially. It's already becoming apparent. And I get scared. I get nervous. I get worried. And then I'm transported back to all the moments into this day.

I'm still bullied, I'm still mocked, I'm still judged, scapegoated, projected on like crazy. I think there's no better person than an autistic person for people to create a narrative about and to make a character in their story without really knowing what's going on. I mean, we are such targets of that. I don't think there could be anything more painful than seeing that happening to your kid.

Lian (32:26)

Yes. Yes. Just on that, for looking at it, because I can't simultaneously cope with the intensity of the sensation that rises when I think of it through the lens of children. But from an adult perspective, what is it with the projection? Why?

Jessica (32:46)

Yeah.

The way that my therapist put it to me just last week, okay, is you are a multi -dimensional, multi -faceted being. There's so much range in us that a lot of people have such a narrow scope of what is human, what is possible, what things mean when someone

acts or says something that we get put into these really tiny boxes. And usually when you're a vast dimensional being and you get put into a tiny box, it's so hurtful because of not being seen, being misunderstood. And then it's like, I, no, no, no, no, no, wait. You think that because of the way that I express my love, for example, then in your world,

Love can only mean one or two things. Like, okay, well, that must mean we're going to have sex now. I'm sorry, what? No, I'm just like, there's other ways to love. There's other dimensions of loving as one example. But for a lot of people, the scope is so narrow that they got to take us and crunch us into a little thing. And inherently within that, we become whatever, however they feel about the thing they've made us, which is usually a combination

Lian (33:52)

Mmm.

Mmmmm

Jessica (34:18)

envy, jealousy, resentment. I mean, listen, if we're canaries in the coal mine, then simply our existence in a room is going to trigger people. And the more unconscious somebody is, the more we're going to trigger them. And so when people get triggered and feel uncomfortable, they will blame you. And it's your fault that they feel uncomfortable because of whatever you've made them feel. And then they usually, if they're unconscious, react and take it out on you.

And then not only are you in a state of projection, but now you're in projective identification. And the problem that we have with our typical lack of boundaries is we become the thing that they see us as. And we can start acting and saying like these channels, whatever the thing is that that person is like essentially eliciting and pulling from us to fulfill their prophecy of

whatever, you know, freaking psychological drama we happen to be a character in for them. Well, we're over here just like, I'm just being myself. What is it? But we just fall into these, at least for myself, these landmines of like, how did I just say the very thing that is going to trigger you the most? And we've been talking for 60 seconds. Fuck me.

Lian (35:51)

You've just done this like brilliant job of like projection 101 but with like this autistic twist and like it's just like brilliant humour. If Sara and our team chooses the clips we're gonna release on

social media but like I'm definitely that one please. I love that so much. What this is, it's taking a slightly different turn but

Jessica (36:20)

Happy to be of service.

Lian (36:35)

And I think I do want to make sure we come back to where we were because I think there's a lot held in that is like, yes, there is a there is an impact of being a mask that I think is part of something we need to include in this conversation. So I want to return back there. But what you were just talking about there when you talk about that kind of like channeling in the, you know, the energy, the spirits at the moment.

I suspect we'll get into this more when we do the episode that we plan to do. But one of the things that I think has been

most challenging for me, one of the things that's been most challenging for me is as most autistic people, many autistic people have, I've got this like very good mind for logic, for looking at things very rationally with perspective and being able to make this kind of

this is this and therefore it sits there. doesn't really matter how I feel about it. It just is how it is. And then simultaneously having this just, you know, wide open mind and heart that is just at any one moment, having all of these different experiences and feelings and all kinds of things flowing through. And it wasn't really until I, I guess,

consciously, I'd had so many, I guess, unwelcome experiences, that it took a lot for me to start to consciously open to that. That's where it wasn't really the opposite kind of upbringing to yours, but it certainly wasn't something I had the same amount of sort of time really exploring those kinds of gifts. And then I spent a lot of years really like closing the lid on them for my own sort of survival, really.

And then as I started to open up to them in various ways, including in shamanic work, it was then a really interesting kind of battle where my sort of logical, rational mind was like, this does not make sense. Like, this is not scientific. How on earth can it be possible for all of these things to be kind of channeling through me or this to be revealed to me when it, you know, there's no rational reason I should know this thing that I know really well.

And so there was a real kind of war going on in me between those parts of me for quite some time before I was able to, and I think I'm stealing the work actually to an extent with that, but like to allow them both to have life. So the reason I'm saying all of this is I look back and it would have been so helpful for me to understand.

been this kind of like peacemaking that's needed to take place and to allow these different parts of me to have life. And I think in places, I think a lot, a lot of ground has been taken. There's still work there to be done for sure. But what you said really had me think,

If I'd realised that when we're talking about openness and sensitivity that can come with being autistic, it's not just openness and sensitivity in the way that we might think of in a kind of like mundane mainstream way. This is magical and spiritual and so beyond.

anything that you can make sense of those rational minds, but also that cause that rational mind is really the rational mind of the collective. And I look back and I think if I had understood what we're talking about here, that all the, know, it's hard to even put into words what's actually occurring. But if I'd understood that the difference that would have made for me would have been immense.

Jessica (40:48)

Hmm. Hmm. I feel the tenderness in that. Yeah.

Lian (40:55)

Mmm.

Jessica (41:04)

I mean, this very much for me comes into the original topic of today in the individuation process. What you're talking about is growing up in a world that prioritises self -knowing and self -trust, that you can trust your experience and that the greatest

place that we get the most information and that we get wisdom is from inside of ourself and learning how to open that up in ourself so that we can be our own guide and compass in moving through the world instead of being internally at war with the parts of ourselves that we don't see.

mirrored or modeled externally, whether in our education system or society or religion, which usually fall within the realm of the intuitive function, the feeling function, having psychic abilities, and that these things have categorically either become taboo, forbidden, even evil, or crazy.

Lian (42:29)

Hmm.

Jessica (42:30)

nobody wants to risk being crazy. So I think a lot of this homecoming and this self -acceptance is the beauty that we live in a vast enough and open enough universe that is so incredibly intelligent that it's both logical and it's so incredibly intelligent that it also has the ability for things like

channeling or knowing things in the unseen world that we would call magical and that we actually get to be all of the things because the universe is all of those things and we are the universe. And so when we open our eyes wider beyond the human thought forms that have been conditioned over evolution, particularly in like the last 5 ,000 years of patriarchy, what we see is a deep cosmic homecoming, which is, uh, no.

we now know there are trillions and billions and billions of galaxies. If we didn't know that less than hundred years ago, and I didn't know that I was autistic less than a year and a half ago, what else don't I know? And the original maxim of know thyself actually meant know your place. You are a mortal, be humble. And admitting that we're ignorant is the first step into being allowed into the mystery.

Lian (43:40)

Mmm.

Jessica (43:56)

And so I can deeply empathize with, wow, yeah, you get to be both logical and gifted in your intuitive and however you phrase it, psychic abilities. There's room here for all of those parts of you because we live in a universe that's vast enough for all of those parts to be here. And that's a much more interesting world to live in.

Lian (44:23)

Hmm. Yes, yes. Hmm. It's, it brings me actually to the name of this very show. And there's many different lenses we can have on that, that notion of be mythical. The way you just spoke then brought me back to...

Jessica (44:25)

It's a more fun world.

Lian (44:50)

I think there was this such a strong pull in childhood to living a mythical life, to live in a world where there can be dragons and there can be fairies in the woods and talking cats. In fact, your teddy bears talk, obviously they do. And

I think that's a story that I'm now more consciously living into after so many years of like, no, that's not okay. That's not possible. That's not allowed. And so much of my work now is a reclamation of a truth that I felt so deeply as a child. And yes, I feel like not only is that, you said it's like a more interesting world to live in. I kind of feel that...

whether or not everyone would language it in the way that I live, but I sort of feel that it's our birthright.

Jessica (45:50)

Hmm. I agree with you. That's my sense too, that it is our birthright. I like that because it brings in the sacred dimension of it. It's our birthright to get to live in that world. And as you say, we take our cue from children, our teddy bears speak. There's no reason that should ever end. The only reason that ends is because we say it must.

And I think most of us grieve that moment in childhood, if that did happen to us, where our teddy bears couldn't speak anymore. And when you look at a child who's in that place of enchantment and imagination, what we're really seeing is their profound birthright connection to source. And there's no reason that when we develop and we grow,

Lian (46:37)

Mmm.

Jessica (46:43)

that that connection to source also gets to, and it gets to keep its dimension of the mythical world, and that that mythical world can be a world that we choose to live in, and it is a choice. And when we live in that world, we get to decide, well, what world do I enjoy more? Do I enjoy living in a rational, logical world where things are devoid of meaning and purpose?

Or do I enjoy more living in a world that's imbued with meaning and intelligence and purpose and a sacred dialogue between me and the all? I prefer that one.

Lian (47:18)

Hahahaha

I wonder if anyone's listening to this like, no, I'll have the rational one devoid, devoid of meaning.

Jessica (47:33)

I mean, we have, that's your choice. You can't. mean, I don't want to, if you want to live there by all means.

Lian (47:42)

So coming back and there's part of me that's like, I don't want to go back there because, you know, I love where we are and it would be in some ways a really beautiful place to complete the show. But I feel as though by doing that, we're bypassing something that's so important and is really, you know, again, I think calling us to attend to it is like, again, if we are going to choose into

Jessica (47:50)

Yeah.

Lian (48:11)

this work of going first. And that includes the way that we parent, where we are going to be these creatures of multitudes that have a very profound impact on the world, bringing all these projections. That's going to create experiences for us, but also our children.

It's not at all that I'm expecting you to go like, okay, so what should we do about that? Of course, this is unfolding over years and lifetime and lifetimes. But I'd love to hear your sense as to what you've seen so far that allows us to, I guess, journey into those experiences and those choices with heart.

Jessica (49:00)

Hmm. Thank you for that invitation. I mean, I don't know why, but this is the story I think that illustrates it that's coming to mind is my daughter is in a preschool where everyone is autistic and she is a very physically attractive young girl. She's extremely beautiful.

But she is the absolute epitome of independence, willfulness, self -possession, and does not give two fucks about anyone or anything. She's kind -hearted, but she will not alter or change her course due to what you think or want from her. She was on the playground last week, and she's playing

her game in her imaginal world and this little boy comes up to her and he starts playing alongside her, she allows it, but she doesn't then pay him attention and he starts poking at her, pay attention to me, pay attention to me, look at me. And she doesn't do that, she doesn't want to do that. And so he goes and he hits her as hard as he can on her back. And it's the first time that I know of that she's been hit. And she

you know, the school calls me, I hear her, she's screaming. And when I go to meet her, my daughter is still mostly, she's minimally speaking. So she does have words, but mostly doesn't use them. And I sit there and I'm like, how do we deal with this moment where I need you to understand it's not okay that this person hit you, but I

also want you to understand why they hit you.

Lian (50:59)

Hmm.

Jessica (51:01)

So it's never okay for someone to hit us, but I think what happened here was this little boy wanted something from you and you didn't give it to him and he got angry and so he hit you.

I think this is so important for being autistic, which is it's okay to be who you are, please be who you are, but that is going to make some people angry and maybe even violent. And though that is never okay, I think it's also important for us to understand why people treat us the way that they do. And I think it's important for me as an adult to process when someone is unkind to me,

or response to me or is projecting onto me and I'm uncomfortable and I don't like it, to say, okay, first of all, I'm not gonna take that personally. It hurts my feelings. I don't like it. But I also would like to be able to have some understanding of why this happens to me so that I can do a better job moving forward of discerning when and how to protect myself to minimise those experiences.

Because you know what? I don't want to walk through the world unmasked as a target and an open place for people to dump their shit. So what I'm learning to do, and it's a work in practice, is knowing that leaning into my gifts is a choice. It's not my home. There's actually a different place inside of us that is home. And leaning into our gifts, like having deep conversations with people,

That's a choice. It's a gift. It's the place we wanna be. But is this a safe person and moment to do that with? And how do we discern that so that I don't have to energetically take on that person's unconscious crap if I don't have to? So I think for me, it's like, I wanna be me, but I also wanna have discernment around what the impact of me being me is going to have.

And if in that particular moment, it's going to be worth it or not. I don't want my daughter to start paying attention to somebody because they're going to hit her. But I also want her to understand there are real social consequences, relational consequences for all of us, but when you don't do the things that are expected of you. And that is a sickness of our world, but it's also a reality of it. So we can say it's wrong, but we also have to say,

You know what? That is here. We can't pretend that's not what's going on.

Lian (53:43)

you

There's so, so much in what you've just shared there. Thank you. Thank you. There's, yeah, it brought up huge amounts for me. I think, knowing we don't have time to like really go into everything that's there, what feels, what feels present to say for the moment is,

there's a kind of like real sort of deep attunement and wisdom in what you've shared there. Like it's a perfect story because it really brings us present to the reality that it isn't just someone saying something, know, that she was actually hit.

And that is a reality, you whether it's in that form or something else that we are going to be brought present to over and over again. And there was something so powerful in what you said, it immediately brought tears when you were saying, you know, to understand why that's happened. There is something, I look back at my own life and I think, my goodness, if I'd known that then, even if it still happened, the difference it would have made to me.

Jessica (55:06)

Yeah, I feel

Lian (55:08)

Hmm, there's something so healing even in like it didn't happen in that way then but just even to be able to sort of like travel back in time You know, I know I know through the work I do just even being able to travel back in time with that consciousness Changes things it heals things

Jessica (55:28)

Yes. I so love you and enjoy your presence in your soul and what you bring in. It's such a rare gift to get to be in the presence of someone who lives as deeply and consciously and fully and openly as you. And I'm just so moved by the alchemy of

us getting to share this space -time together today.

Lian (56:00)

Mm, me too. My goodness. I'm so glad we began. mean, again, isn't that testament to living in that way, like connecting that way right from the moment we arrived on the screen. Wow.

Jessica (56:14)

Well, there's nothing better for an autistic person to actually have a real deep conversation and not have to do the small talk. It's like, whew, thank goodness.

Lian (56:26)

I love that! That's so funny! Like the fact I think it was like two minutes in we were both in tears!

I love that so much. So again, I feel like there is so much, know, even again, just that story that you've just shared, there's so much there that I would love to do justice to, but just can't in the time that we have. But all again, I can say to listeners is to really journey deeply

Jessica (56:38)

Get down to business. There's no time to waste.

Lian (57:05)

that story and what it brought up because there is there's so much in that energetically that is like it's like this sort of capsule like microcosm of so much else.

Jessica (57:20)

I love that. Yes. Well put. It's a holographic experience of so much.

Lian (57:26)

Mmm.

Yes, it is indeed. So my dear, until the next time, where can listeners find out about you and your wonderful work, which I'm really looking forward to absolutely diving into and celebrating when we do get together next. But for now, where can listeners find out about you?

Jessica (57:33)

Yes.

yes. Well, thank you. You can find me and my whole body of work at TrustPsychie .com and there I also have a podcast called TrustPsychie Podcast. You can also find all of my astrology and psychology videos on my YouTube channel, which is also TrustPsychie. That's probably my favourite medium. And you can also follow me on Instagram at Trust .Psychie.

I think the thing I'm most excited about right now is my upcoming online astrology course on synestery and composite charts and understanding relationships through astrology. And so it's open to anyone who wants to dive into that form of correspondence where we really get to look at the karma and the Dharma and the gifts and the challenges of any relationship that we're in by looking

the two charts being put together. So I just welcome anybody who feels called to that or to any of the other online courses. I think we have six right now. So that's all at TrustPsychie .com. And if you feel in any way called to reach out to me, you can also find how to contact me there.

Lian (59:08)

Wonderful and I highly highly highly recommend that listeners if they are feeling any pull of curiosity to go follow that because I first came across you as a year or two and it was on YouTube and Yeah immediately like from the moment you started to talk it was actually about Chiron the Wounded Healer, which is you know, I think a mutual passion or you also have in common

and yeah you have a really really beautiful way of unfolding like such rich wisdom in in a relatable way so yeah really recommend listeners go check out all of your things.

Jessica (59:51)

Thank you so much.

Lian (59:53)

So until the next time, this has been absolutely wonderful. We've gone in places I totally wasn't expecting. I felt things I wasn't intending to feel, but thank you so much. You are so wonderful, Jessica.

Jessica (1:00:06)

Oh Lian, yeah, just again, it's been such a joy and an honour to be here with you. I'm so excited. I feel like T is like a tease. I'm like, we get a we get to keep going. What's next? I like this foreplay here that we've accomplished.

Lian (1:00:28)

Yes! So we shall schedule in our next intercourse!

Jessica (1:00:31)

Yeah.

Lian (1:00:40)

Thank you so much. Lots of love.

Jessica (1:00:44)

Sign me up!

kiss kiss

kiss kiss

Lian (1:00.52)

I very much hope you enjoyed watching that and if you did and you're not already subscribed then do hit that bell thingy and subscribe to automatically get each fresh new episode as it's released each week. If you'd like to find out more about the work we do at Be Mythical to guide and support old souls in this new world to live their own unique myth...

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Lots of love for now.

See you again next week.

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