How to embark on the journey of working with a spirit or deity (transcript)

Please note: We run our audio podcast episodes through a transcription software platform that offers 90% accuracy. So you may find some words are out of place and a few sentences don’t make complete sense. If you do see something utterly ridiculous we’d love you to let us know so we can correct it. Please email any howlers with the time stamp to team@bemythical.com.

Full show notes here.

Episode Transcript:

Lian (03:25.634)

Hello Jessica, a huge welcome back to the show.

Jessica Howard (03:30.782)

Thank you, yes, exciting to be here again.

Lian (03:34.838)

Well, as soon as we lighted on the topic for this show, it felt so good to me. I was saying to you, I've had quite a busy day and knowing that we had this conversation lined up, which felt almost like an oasis of beauty and love and devotion in the middle of my day. So I'm really looking forward to this.

Jessica Howard (03:57.014)

Yes, it's definitely a good way to break up the work day. So yeah, also looking forward to it.

Lian (04:03.588)

Wonderful. So where I'd love to start is we are going to talk kind of more generally in a way that hopefully will be very relevant to many of our listeners around this idea of feeling this call from a particular spirit being deity and that call that we can feel in one way or another

towards something and what that represents and the journey that can take us on. But I'd love to start first with your own and the call that you had to water.

Jessica Howard (04:42.046)

Yeah, so I've got to be honest, I'm not entirely sure when it started. It's not one of those that I kind of, you know, had a big singular kind of moment that I was like, oh, yes, you know, I feel this affinity with the element of water. It was, it was a very gradual build. So I've generally kind of been interested in all things spiritual since, you know, my young teenage years, so well over 20 years now.

but the call to work specifically with the element of water probably came about seven, eight years ago. And I think at first it started with being called by a specific deity. And I don't know if you've ever had that way. You can feel something is calling you, but you just kind of can't work out who it is or what it is. So after a bit of work and a bit of research, I came to identify that as Kleana.

Lian (05:26.21)

Mm.

Jessica Howard (05:35.71)

Who in the Irish tradition was a sort of a goddess, a queen of fairies, queen of the banshees, who was also very much associated with the sea and the seashore. I was kind of really compelled to work with her. I think that was my first foray into working with a deity that had that specific association with the element of water.

Jessica Howard (06:05.654)

there. And after that, I started looking into working with more deities associated with water, with working with the specific bodies of water themselves, with water spirits and that sort of thing. And yeah, it was one of those things that now it just feels like such an intrinsic part of my belief and just that connection that I have feels so deep that I wonder how it took me so long to find it.

But I suppose there's not really been one defining moment as such. It's definitely been more of a journey. It definitely kind of surprised me at first. I mean, I'm, I'm a fire sign. I exhibit a lot of the traits that you'd expect from fire signs, but I think actually that's one of the main reasons that perhaps I feel so pulled to the element of water is that I know, especially with the fire signs. I can exhibit some of the more, the negative traits, you know, I can be quick to anger or I can kind of, you know,

have my outbursts prone to sort of more emotions like jealousy and that sort of thing. But actually working with the element of water kind of balances that out and has really allowed me to reflect on those behaviors. I mean, one of the main associations with the element of water is transformation and self-reflection. So I think as well, that's probably one of the reasons that I connect to it so well, if that makes sense, which

Yeah, it's kind of an interesting way to look at it, that balance. I know a lot of people, you know, I'm a fire sign, I'm an earth sign, and they tend to work most with those elements. But I've actually found for me working with the opposite element, in this case, the element of water has been much more kind of beneficial in terms of my own growth.

Lian (07:52.778)

Mm, yes, that really makes sense. There's several points along your journey that I've really seen through my own journey and that of guiding others through this that feel very much like kind of commonalities, that show up in their own unique way. But starting with that sense that you said, where it's like, it was like I could feel that something was happening, like I was being called by something.

but I didn't know what it was. And of course in our culture, we've, it's almost like a lost art, isn't it? To recognize that, let alone to act upon it. And I think that's first and foremost, something so useful to recognize. If we are on the kind of magical, mythical, alchemical path, recognizing likely there will be a time where we get a call like that.

So we can look out for it and then start to know what to do with it. I think in itself is huge. It's not something like if, say, for example, an average kind of mainstream civilian were to hear what we're talking about, it would make no sense because it's not something we have in our culture. And so I think that is huge. And certainly for me, there's been times where it was, I guess,

Probably similar to what you were saying, is that you don't really know when the start of your, that journey with water happened, and then there was that kind of like distinct aspect where you kind of felt there was a deity. A couple of the ways that I've been called to work with spirits, let's say, have been similar. So one of the ones that has been probably there for me the longest is the rose. And I've had this deep, deep affinity with the rose for...

as long as I can remember, most of my life. And I think when it started to become more conscious originally, was I have the print of the painting, Soul of the Rose. And there was something about that, where it was like, even though this was back when I was in my corporate days and had no real, I'd have pushed all that side of me to one side. And so for me, it was like, a painting's just a painting. And yet, I knew.

Jessica Howard (10:11.508)

I think.

Lian (10:12.974)

It was like, it was like, it was a call, it was calling me to something else, calling me, as I would say now, like to my myth, to the way of living, the way of being that was uniquely right for me. And so over the years, I started to become more and more conscious, like, this is more than me just liking roses. There's something deeper here, but I still didn't really understand there was something even deeper again. It was like there was still not yet that sense of, oh,

this is a kind of, there's, you could say, capacities, gifts that the rose brings that it's calling me into. And that took longer for me to recognise and has also, you know, it's just as you're saying, kind of has had deities associated with it that I started to recognise, ah, it's not just I'm being called into a relationship with this.

I'm being called to do certain things, make certain choices in order to honour that, which is where then again the next challenge comes because we are again bereft of understanding, bereft of guidance. So I'd love to know like how did you, when you were saying you started to research what that deity could be, how did you know that? I know that you already had some background in say witchcraft, so was that because of what you'd already learned or was it instinctive, a bit of both?

Jessica Howard (11:38.346)

honestly never heard of Cleana before. It was, I suppose, a little bit of instinct in that I could feel it was a deity that was associated with water. Again, it's one of those things that, as you said, anybody listening in, a regular civilian, it sounds crazy, but you just know, you just get those feelings. I think especially because for so long we're told to ignore them.

I found that the more you ignore them, the stronger and stronger they get. They may kind of wane, but they come back and they come back stronger. And so it kind of becomes a bit undeniable to yourself. So I knew it was associated with the element of water. And from there, I just kind of researched, you know, deities, spirits, etc., these beings associated with the element of water. And I can't remember where I read it, but I just read a passage on Cleana and it just

It was almost like a switch went off in my mind. It was, you know, almost as if she said, yep, that's it. That's me. This is it. And I kind of knew it from there. It's, it is very difficult when you get that calling to try and decipher exactly who it is that's calling you. And I think you've touched on a really interesting point in that, you know, there's, there's no guide, there's no code. And I've especially found when working with more spirits rather than deities, that if you try and approach them.

Lian (12:40.636)

Mmm.

Jessica Howard (13:04.886)

if you're trying to have a conversation with your mum or something, it just doesn't work. I remember trying to communicate with water spirits using my pendulum and you use very kind of yes, no questions. The answers that I always got were very mixed, lots of unsure's lots of no's. Because you're just asking yes, no questions, it's very difficult to actually get to.

Lian (13:17.798)

Hmm

Jessica Howard (13:33.314)

bottom of the message that they're trying to share with you. I think one of the things that I learnt through that is that especially spirits, they don't speak in our common language, if that makes sense. They're much more symbolic. They're much more abstract. I think understanding that as well has really helped deepen the relationships that I have with things like spirits and deities

Lian (13:46.114)

What the hell is this?

Jessica Howard (14:01.91)

Forget everything you ever knew, throw the rule book out and just listen and kind of understand that yeah, it's not going to be a nice packaged dream where they turn up and say you need to do X, Y and Z. You really need to actually kind of listen with more than just your ears and pay attention to the symbolism that's around as well.

Lian (14:16.77)

Hmm

Lian (14:25.09)

Oh, I love that so much. I really do. There was something interesting you said, which was, I thought, a great metaphor. You said something like when you initially started working with pendulum, it was like, there was something, you had to go deeper. You said something about going deeper. And I was like, that's such a great, it's kind of both a metaphor and a literal example of how each of the different spirits or beings will teach us

Jessica Howard (14:49.066)

Yeah.

Lian (14:54.018)

how to listen, how to relate in the way that's right for them, through, as you say, symbols, through metaphors, through us becoming really intimate with them as they are, rather than our projected view of, you know, for example, one of the most important beings in my journey is an oak tree. And it's like, I have to put out outside all my ideas of trees, and oak trees, and even that

get intimate with it in its own right. And by doing so, you learn the language. You start to even start to think oak or think water. It becomes part of your being where you can then speak the language. But that requires that humility, that not knowing. Like you say, just throw out this, oh, I'm just going to speak to it in my, whatever my mother tongue is, and he's going to speak back to me like that.

Occasionally with certain types of spirits it can happen and certainly I've noticed at particular points in my journey where I wasn't yet ready to really understand what was required for me to learn the language there was a little bit more of a direct kind of transmission almost like we're going to give you a little bit of a kind of like bless her heart she doesn't know what she's doing well kind of stabilises so she can learn to ride a lot

Jessica Howard (16:15.072)

I ain't yet.

Lian (16:20.638)

until she's ready to properly listen. I don't know if you had something similar, but that's what I've noticed. There's times when they'll speak to you a little bit more in a way we're expecting, but that doesn't last for long.

Jessica Howard (16:33.566)

Yeah, I think especially thinking about starting off. So one of the water spirits that I work with quite closely, they're known as the Well Maidens. So they come from a poem called The Elucidation. It's very kind of ingrained with the Arthurian legends and the Holy Grail. And the story kind of goes that, you know, they...

they were once the keepers of the wells and travelers along the path could turn up at the wells and the maidens would give them food and water and anything that they desired and they were very kind of you know helpful, they were spirits of abundance. The king at the time abused the maidens' hospitality and so the maidens disappeared from the land and the land went into decline and kind of became a bit of a post-apocalyptic wasteland.

And then comes Arthur and he's trying to restore the wells and restore the maidens. And definitely when I first started working with the well maidens, it was very much more of that, okay, I wanna communicate with them through tarot and I'm gonna communicate with them through my pendulum. But especially after working with them for quite a while. So I now actually have a space just up the road from me. So again, they're associated with wells.

very few of them around, but I'm quite lucky that just up the road from me in a park is a well. It's a couple of hundred years old. It is now kind of buried under the ground, but there is a website called Geoindepts, which maps all of the wells here in the UK. So I've been able to actually locate the specific point.

Lian (18:10.83)

Hello.

Jessica Howard (18:15.258)

I actually a few months ago kind of went up there and performed a bit of a ritual to invite the maidens back into the land. And that was such a powerful experience that now it just feels like that relationship is deeper and actually I prefer to communicate with them by kind of going up there and again just listening and seeing what thoughts, images, etc. come to me rather than needing to rely on.

Tarot. And actually I find that again, because they speak that different language and you've got that better understanding of that language now that is much more effective in terms of how connected I feel to them than relying on yet more, I suppose, kind of physical tools such as your Tarot and your other divination methods to speak to them.

Lian (19:04.733)

Ehhhhhh

Yes, I love that. So you've mentioned a couple of times things like tarot symbols. And what I've learned over the years is that, just your saying, it isn't necessarily that we can use these tools, these ways that have typically served us when it comes to this communication. It can work, but often it isn't the thing. However, there is

a kind of almost like universal language of magic, which is symbol. And whichever doorway or doorways we take, whether that be astrology, whether that be tarot, whether that be runes, you know, the Kabbalah, whatever the thing is, there is this really beautiful interweaving of magical symbol that it's almost like, you know, that in itself can be a calling from a spirit, like, say, for example, the spirit of the tarot.

But there is also that learning that language, which absolutely does seem to be almost be like a common language that is often spoken by all kinds of deities and spirits and will be shown to us in all kinds of ways doesn't necessarily mean it's literally sometimes it is literally being shown a symbol. And sometimes it comes in other forms. But that's something that I've increasingly recognized like, you know,

Often now, when I, at the moment, I've just devoted to go deeper with a tarot than I've been before. And it isn't really to use it in divination. It's purely as like the next level of learning like the depths of that language. And so I'd love to know your thoughts, whether you've recognised like how that's shown up for you and how your previous understanding of symbols has served you.

Jessica Howard (21:05.27)

Yeah, so I think it's a really interesting point. I think one of the things that I've always been quite interested in is journeying. Even before I started working specifically with the element of water, there was kind of a great deal of journeying within my practice and kind of, you know, traveling to meet guides and that sort of thing. So I think I've always kind of preferred that as a method.

And within that, it usually is very kind of symbolic. You know, you'll go and they'll perform and you'll meet them and you'll perform an action. You know, let's say for example, just thinking off the top of my head, you know, washing your feet in a well, for example, which I mean, it could mean a lot of things. I also always think that symbolism is really, really personal, you know, for example,

Lian (21:55.586)

Hmmm

Jessica Howard (21:57.298)

colour is a great one. We often associate the colour pink with romantic love, but if you went to the funeral of a close friend and it was full of pink roses, you could for a while more have the association of the colour pink as something more associated with grief than romantic love. I think that when it comes to symbolism, it is all very, very specific to yourself. I think whilst

Lian (22:11.927)

Mmm.

Jessica Howard (22:27.542)

that communication happens, how you actually interpret that communication is very personal to someone. I mean, we could work with, you know, we could both work with the well maidens and they could have the same message for us, but they could present it with a very different symbolism depending on our own personal symbologies. Those can be things, you know,

Lian (22:37.211)

Hmm

Jessica Howard (22:56.198)

Let's say, for example, that foxes are a big part of my life. I've got lots of foxes running around this area, but you may have never seen a fox before in your life. If there was something that they wanted to communicate, often the fox is symbolic. For me personally, I have worked quite a lot with the fox and the spirit of the fox in the past. The fox has always come to me when something isn't quite what it seems and there's a bit of an illusion going on and it's just telling me to be a bit careful.

Lian (23:20.377)

Hmm

Jessica Howard (23:23.478)

that if that was the message that a spirit had for me, it might present a fox in the journey that I'm undertaking. But for you, it may be something completely different because a fox isn't something you have that association with. So I think as well as kind of learning the language, there's been a lot about learning my own symbology rather than just, you know, oh, okay, I've seen this, pick up a book. What does the internet say this thing represents?

There's also kind of been that separate but connected journey of understanding my own personal symbology and how that helps me connect to spirits and as well as then communicating with me, how I use that to communicate with spirits as well. So, you know, I particularly love incense and flowers. And so for me, those always feel like much.

of higher value offerings than say a cake or something. But again, that's just me specifically. If you're a high-end baker, then actually baking may feel like more of a symbolically appropriate offering for you. So yeah, the language thing is very, very interesting. And there is definitely that universal language, but I think it does also lead you off down that rabbit hole of your own

Lian (24:19.971)

Hmm.

Jessica Howard (24:46.57)

You communicate it to spirits and deities and things, as well as how they communicate to you.

Lian (24:52.482)

Hmm, I couldn't agree more. I love that you said that and it's

Lian (25:00.11)

As an example, just recently, I was shown the pyramids and like particular aspects of the pyramids really clearly on a journey in December. And there's obviously like lots of symbolism that people have around the pyramids. And yet there was a particular way of understanding, and which I'm still journeying with, there's a particular.

a way of understanding that particular symbol, why it was shown to me in that way at that time, connected with other. And of course this is contextual, it's like how it interweaves with other symbols that are alive and in your life. And that's something that you could be shown that, and it would mean something completely different. So I couldn't agree more. There was something, actually a couple of things you've said that I'd love to pick up on now. So you were talking about, you didn't use the word pilgrimage, but you said something like, you know,

you said something that indicated this kind of making the effort to go somewhere, to do something that's out of the ordinary, you know, it takes time and energy and then you're talking about offerings and

This is something that, I mean, probably the one thing I've said on this show more than ever is this kind of, and we probably touched on it a lot when we last spoke, you know, like reclaiming this reciprocal relationship with, you know, all that is around us. And I think particularly when we are devoting to work with a particular spirit, that's part of what we learn. That's part of like the manners almost, the etiquette, the way of being in right relationship. And

This again, it's a lost art. So, you know, most of us weren't shown to do this as we grew up. We weren't. This isn't something our culture, but it also, I think, takes us into for many people, the realms of the conditioning that is going to get in the way of us doing those things. You know, there's whether it be explaining to a family member why I'm taking myself off to go and do

Lian (27:07.554)

journey to go and visit the oak tree I mentioned. And, you know, there was these, like, I remember the time, my husband in particular, we just kind of like, I'm not really getting, you know, why is she doing that? And then over time it's become, you know, completely normal. There was a point that I just love, this is several years ago now, we'd had a really bad storm and we'd actually lost one of the trees in our garden. And I'm probably going to get emotional telling you this.

Jessica Howard (27:32.164)

I'm going to go to bed.

Lian (27:32.202)

And then my husband, he walked the dogs really early that next morning and went up to where my tree is so that you could especially see if it was okay. And then like came back and said, oh, just so you know, I've just got to check to me your train. It's okay. I was like, oh, my goodness. Talk about love language. So it's but it requires journeyings through all of that being misunderstood before you can arrive at that. And same with offerings, you know, it's weird.

Jessica Howard (27:44.29)

That's really sweet.

Lian (28:01.938)

As you were describing, us making an offering needs to be something that has value to us. It's like give the best, give something that has real value for us. But that again, it's like conditioning in terms of us having to kind of break through this, like I'm literally just chucking something away because that's what we can start to think, is that what I'm doing? I'm literally just throwing out something that's value for me and chucking it on the earth. And of course, other people's judgment. I mentioned on a show the other day about

made some offerings of some really beautiful ripe peaches to the silver birch in my garden, and my gardener went past, and he went, it was like, you tell it, it's like so discombobulated, like, oh, like, sorry, why are they there? And I think I said, I've given them to the silver birch, and then he'd said something like, oh, does it like them then? And I said, yes. And it was a whole, it was just very beautiful tableaus of kind of like all sorts of, you know,

Jessica Howard (28:40.353)

Yeah.

Lian (29:02.234)

all of that within one place. And at this point, I really don't mind, you know, it's okay for people to misunderstand me or think I'm a bit strange, like I'm okay with that. But at one point I wouldn't have been. And I know many of our students are also in that kind of like that in itself is an initiation that in itself is a real challenge that I think it's worth recognising is present in this. But I'd love to know your experiences of that.

Jessica Howard (29:02.381)

Yeah.

Jessica Howard (29:27.638)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's been, I can think of several times, especially early on when, you know, I'd go to, there was a particular pond near where I used to, I used to live and just kind of at the edge, it had this, this really beautiful tree stump. And I always felt kind of cool to leave offerings on that to the, the spirits of that particular pond. But yeah, many times just kind of stood there looking around like, is there anyone watching? Are they going to think I'm mad for just leaving some biscuits here?

Yeah, there's definitely at first that trepidation and the self-doubt because also, as you said, you just kind of think, why am I doing this? This is ridiculous. What sane person does this? I think it's definitely that leap of faith, isn't it? It's that just trusting in that higher power.

Lian (29:55.948)

You

Lian (30:09.961)

I'm sorry.

Jessica Howard (30:19.462)

And just doing it. And again, kind of, as I said before, you know, you can ignore it, but it will come back and it will come back stronger. And once, once you've kind of made that leap, then yeah, you definitely begin to feel a lot more comfortable in yourself. And as the relationship strengthens, you feel a lot more kind of confident in it that, you know, by the end of it, you're waving at the dog walkers as you're burning your incense and hugging the tree. And, you know, it, it matters a lot less because.

Lian (30:43.601)

I'm sorry.

Jessica Howard (30:47.394)

It's just kind of the nature of those relationships. I suppose it's almost like, you know, I know it's, you can't really compare it to human relationships, but it's like your friend's doing something embarrassing. So you do something more embarrassing to take the attention off of them whilst they go and sort themselves out. It's that kind of, you know, this relationship means more to me than what people think or even I might think about myself. And I think that's definitely...

Lian (31:12.897)

Mmm.

Jessica Howard (31:14.502)

one of the biggest lessons that I've learned through working with spirits especially. And I think every spirit that I've worked with has come to me for a very different reason. I mean, I've kind of had ones that just want a bit of attention, they just want to be acknowledged and you know, they'll steal my stuff and I'll kind of acknowledge them. They'll return it and kind of, you know, very traditional Faye style. But then there's also the ones that actually kind of, you know, they have.

a message for you. And that message could be something related to, you know, your career, for example. But then I've also had those who want me to actually kind of look within myself and challenge my own behaviours. And I've had those that are contacting me because they want me to help protect the area that they're associated with. So I think as well, there's many different reasons why.

Lian (32:05.87)

Hmm.

Jessica Howard (32:11.978)

spirit may contact you or has contacted me in the past. It's always worth, no matter how bizarre the asks seem, how bizarre the actions or the messages, just following them through and seeing where that ends up because it's usually, again, thinking about how a lot of it is very symbolic. Or at least in my case, a lot of the times I haven't really understood what's being

asked and why until I've done it and then kind of further on down the line it's been like okay that makes sense now and I see that you know this was the purpose of this and yeah I think it's definitely worth just taking that leap of faith but also just trusting that this may not make sense right now but the more you build that relationship the more sense it will eventually make and the better off you and potentially the spirit will be once you've followed it a bit further.

Lian (32:44.294)

Hmmm

Lian (33:11.286)

Mm, that's a really, really beautiful point. It, there's many experiences I've had that that's been present. And I think increasingly, the more, the more you trust, and it's more than trust, it's just a kind of like, the more this just becomes the normal way of being, the more I've noticed that those messages, those invitations are, have less and less kind of

clear meaning. It's like the what's being asked is clear, why it's being asked often isn't. And that's, you know, it's, but you're at the point now where you just wouldn't consider not following it. And so there's kind of like there is just this, okay, I by now I know this is the thing to do. And in the early days, there was certainly much more resistance in me with those bigger things that one of the ones that

I've mentioned several times in this show, because it's for me, that one of the biggest examples of this was at the point where I had already been working in, I guess what you could say is very kind of like animistic fashion for some time and was already doing the work I do now and then had a very, very clear call to devote properly to shamanism. And it just was not something I wanted to do.

I had a lot of resistance. There was like no reason for me. There was like, I'm already, you know, those relationships, I'm already kind of in, I'm already doing the work I'm here to do. Why would I even want to do that? Let alone the fact that there definitely was, you know, a lot of wounding and kind of there's reasons that actually held real fear for me. And at the point that happened, I was I kind of had already learned enough. I knew I couldn't say no, but I could say not yet.

And as you said, you know, and then the call kept coming, kept coming, coming. And then at some point I was like, OK, I'll do it. And then it was only kind of as I began that, you know, all of my shamanic initiations, there was one point so clearly I remember it just sort of came out of a ceremony. And I just had that moment of, oh, my goodness, I understand now. I may not know what this is going to lead to, but I am in exactly the right place. This is like.

Jessica Howard (35:07.092)

Yep.

Lian (35:31.554)

they couldn't have been more right. Like, this is what I should have done. Yes, thank God I listened. Thank God they told me to do this. And it can take, again, that real leap of faith to jump into something you really don't want to do or you have real fear for and just get to the point where you're like, there is no other way of living for me now. But I think just knowing that those, it's not that to say that every single thing we're going to be asked to do is going to be, you know.

Jessica Howard (35:34.11)

Yeah.

Lian (35:57.962)

have so much fear, but I have noticed we are called to things with less and less context and often things that otherwise we wouldn't have done.

Jessica Howard (36:06.498)

Absolutely. And I think the fear thing is really interesting because I know especially a lot of people will kind of, you know, spirit work. It can be very dangerous. There's some very kind of negative spirits out there and things like that. And, you know, I've definitely been guilty, you know, in the early days of kind of, you know, touting that as well. But actually the more and more I've kind of worked with spirits. And again, it's kind of, as we said, you know, there's, they don't speak our native tongue, you know, you need to throw the rule back out.

That also applies to, I suppose, what you'd consider moral codes and ethical codes. And I've worked with spirits that have definitely kind of at first elicited a bit of fear in me. Like, oh, God, this sounds like, you know, they're asking quite a lot or, you know, I'm not entirely sure I trust this.

But actually what they've been asking me to do is that kind of the difficult, the shadow work, the reflecting on my own negative behaviors. And that, that is also very, very difficult, but it also kind of made me really question that notion of good spirits and bad spirits, because actually in the same way that spirits don't conform to our language, I don't think they necessarily affirm to the moral codes that we as a species put in place.

Lian (37:05.393)

Hmm

Jessica Howard (37:28.138)

I think a lot of the time when people talk about negative or evil spirits, actually, it's not evil in the sense that we consider black and white and good and evil. It's that they're more challenging and they're going to ask more challenging things of you that are uncomfortable. Obviously, if they're asking you anything illegal or anything like that, then definitely kind of step away. But I also think the notion of that kind of good spirit, bad spirit,

is a very interesting one to consider, especially when we're thinking about sorts of the things that they're asking or the potential things that you could offer. I think, especially with offerings, and I know we've touched on offering slightly, but we always think incense and flowers and food and wine and that sort of thing. But actually I found that with certain spirits, even

Taking that time out to reflect and make a real effort to kind of deal with and cut off any sort of negative emotions and negative ties can also be a form of offering. It's kind of acknowledging that, yes, I hear the messages that you're giving me and I'm putting the work into understanding these difficult lessons and my offering to you is

Lian (38:39.752)

Mm-mm.

Jessica Howard (38:52.238)

me releasing this negativity and kind of showing that I have embraced you and I value the messages and the journey that you've taken me on.

Lian (39:05.368)

Mm, I

Jessica Howard (39:06.63)

Thank you.

Jessica Howard (39:14.43)

Hehehehehehe

Lian (39:31.35)

This is absolutely, as you're saying, true of all of the spirits, but I think because of the intensity with which people might experience working with a plant medicine type spirit, whether it be the mushroom, ayahuasca, I think it makes much of what we're talking about here more obvious, more tangible. And just like you're saying, you can sit with, say for example, the

Lian (40:00.674)

painful experience, but you have at least the capacity, because of the context, and no, it's not the mushroom, for example, that's this thing that's causing you pain or fear, it is absolutely about these parts of you that are kind of coming up to be seen, to be worked with, to be recognized, to be accepted, whatever the work is. And I think what's really, again, because we just don't have.

the experience in working with spirits of all kinds in our culture, we don't understand, like that's what's happening all the time as you're saying. They're all in this like relationship, showing us things, giving us things, asking the things of us, and we can through our own lens of this is good, this is bad, this is moral, this is you know right, wrong, all of those things and then projecting them outwards like we constantly do. We always think whatever's going on here is going on there.

and just completely miss what's actually happening and what the deepest invitation is to be in that relationship. I think that's just such an important point. So we are, unbelievably, all myself on time. This is flown by. So we've certainly touched on this a few times during the conversation, but I certainly want to make sure, because we're...

I think in some ways we've painted a little bit of a bleak picture. In some ways we focus a lot on the challenges. I would love to hear your experiences of, and I know there is a challenge in what I'm about to say to even name this, but I'd love to know the gifts that working with the spirits that are calling you has brought into your life. How have you benefited? What do you feel has changed and improved?

Jessica Howard (41:22.53)

I'm sorry.

Lian (41:46.814)

in you, in your life because of those relationships.

Jessica Howard (41:51.198)

I think definitely that connection to the environment and to the world around me and just the energy that kind of comprises the world and that, yeah, that connection has definitely been the biggest thing. Kind of going back to the well maidens and the tale there, so just to kind of really summarize it, but essentially there's also something within the tale called the Court of the Fisher King. And once the maidens disappear, the...

the humans, the mortals, can no longer access the court of the fisher king. It's usually said that the court of the fisher king is symbolic of the other world and everything that lies beyond the veil, the things that we can't understand with our five senses. So when the maidens disappear, they're no longer able to access these other worlds and the knowledge. I think that perfectly

Jessica Howard (42:49.762)

kind of, yeah, one of the benefits that I find with working with spirits is they do act as a bit of a gateway, as a bit of a conduit to the other worlds and all of the knowledge and the lessons and things that we can access by interacting more with the other world. It's definitely helped me become much more in touch with my intuition, definitely made me feel, and I think from that...

You just generally feel more confident as a person. You trust yourself more. You trust in the universe more. It helps you kind of make those difficult decisions and you just generally feel more together and confident in what you're doing and where you're going. Um, as you said, it's really difficult to try and put into words exactly what it is that it brings you. It's, it's definitely more of a feeling like even now kind of, you know,

just thinking about it and even just talking about it, I can feel that level of connectivity and the kind of the peace and the balance that it brings me, but it's very difficult to put into words. So yeah, if we have sounded a little bit bleak, then I apologize, but the benefits definitely outweigh any of the possible challenges that you might come across.

Lian (43:59.554)

Yeah.

Lian (44:06.506)

I was thinking as I was listening, the challenge is that we don't have a control, do we? We don't have a version of us that chose not to heed the call. You know, like if there was, if I mean maybe there is somewhere in another universe, but certainly within my awareness, I don't have a version of me that just was like, no, every time I heard the call to the Spirit. So we can only really go by how we're feeling now, I guess, to some extent based on who we were back then and some, you know, looking around at.

Jessica Howard (44:13.642)

Yeah.

Lian (44:33.986)

how other people are. But certainly for me, if there was, I agree with everything you've said, it's certainly, that's very much mirrored my own experience. And again, when I witness students embarking on these relationships, absolutely, you know, these common threads show up over and over. And I think most of all, if I can name it in the, I guess, kind of simplest but most complete way, it's

really a journey and I'm not going to say this is complete because it absolutely isn't, but allowing me to know and become me. If through those relationships, I get to know aspects of myself, reclaim aspects of myself, accept aspects of myself, ultimately, you know, all in service of coming into union with my own soul. And I can say I truly don't believe

where I've journeyed through so far would have been possible without that. I can't even conceive that would have been possible. And so it's like for me that's the biggest gift of all. It's like you know if there's any meaning to all of this, for me it is that, like the journey of becoming ourselves. And so can there be a greater gift?

Jessica Howard (45:47.894)

That was a really beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, that reclaiming yourself and accepting yourself. Yeah, that is exactly it. Yeah, that's perfect.

Lian (45:57.074)

Yes, and it's worth everything that cost, everything it takes. Oh, well, I must say, before we finish, I just feel such a sense of honour and reverence and appreciation and gratitude for certainly all of the spirits and beings and deities that I work for, also yours. And thank you so much for being willing to share what you've taken, your wisdom that you've received from working with your spirits.

Jessica Howard (45:59.514)

Absolutely.

Jessica Howard (46:25.186)

Thank you. Now, I always enjoy these chats. It's always, yeah, it feels like we get to kind of a good level, a good depth. And yeah, it's also beneficial kind of having these conversations as you said before, you know, this conversation itself feels like a kind of an offering or a dedication and an acknowledgement of the spirits and deities and kind of, you know, what they bring to our lives. So yeah, it's been a good conversation. Thank you.

Lian (46:51.913)

Yes, really, really my pleasure. So, where can listeners find out more about you and your wonderful work?

Jessica Howard (46:58.566)

Ooh, so I do have a website. It is www. I'll be honest, I haven't kept it as up to date as I should, but it's got quite a few articles, blog posts, some short courses that I've designed. I'm also quite active on Instagram, which is at the cottage mystic witch.

I've got a couple of books out, one called The Water Witch, an introduction to water witchcraft and another one which is around lithomancy, it's called The Art of Lithomancy which is a form of divination. Those are both published through the Pagan Portal series. I am also on Facebook, just Jessica Howard, but to be honest I never update it, so yeah that would be very quiet if you decide to add me there.

Yeah, if you do manage to find me, always feel free to pop me a message, ask any questions. I love any excuse to talk about any of this. So yeah, I think that's it.

Lian (47:55.682)

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a joy. It really has. It's one that I'm, feels one of those little rare jewels that every now and again get to create and give to the world. So thank you.

Jessica Howard (48:11.287)

Cool, yeah.

 THE BE MYTHICAL PODCAST

With hundreds of episodes to choose from, illuminating your path with myth, magic, archetypes, and practical ways to thrive in this crazy modern world. Subscribe to our free weekly podcast ranked in the 1.5% most popular shows in the world!